Impersonation in N3

[Chris]

Hey guys,

already did that post on the old forums but thought there might be some here that
did not see it :-).

What do you think of how Impersonation will be in N3 ? Infiltration got nerfed so it seems
that it could go that way. I personally don't use Impersonators but play against assassins frequently.
I am very annoyed by them (naturally) but I would only tweak them by doing something like deny them the chance to set up in your deployment zone or at least giving a -3 modifier for doing so.

What do you think ?

Greetings
Chris

[Scorch]

Do we have info on impersonation in n3?

[Chris]

Don't think so, we can only speculate ^^

[IJW Wartrader]

No information at all.

Also, I'd classify the changes to Infiltrating over the halfway line as a change as much as a nerf - you have a choice on where the model goes if it fails and the model can't go off-table requiring an extra order to bring it on in a 100% predictable arrival point.

[Chris]

Hmm, yes, I guess you can see it that way. What do you think - would you nerf Impersonation or is it good as
it is ?

[Scorch]

Good as it is. They are annoying, but that's their thing. And there are lots of ways to nerf or cancel it in game: failing WIP roll, not having first strike, high WIP models making their WIP check.. Only recloak out of LoS. Taking away their option to deploy in enemy's DZ will break them, as they often can't take a hit back.

[Chris]

Hmm, I must say, them deploying in the DZ, especially with the minelaying variant is the thing that really makes
them seem a bit OP (to me at least). Especially since they almost always succeed due to WIP 15. The problem I see with changes here is that the assassins are a very potent choice with Vanilla Haqq - especially with Saladin involved (who might also change however) - but are really life and death for Hassassin Bahram. So nerfing them will be ok for Vanilla but potentially devastating for the sectorial.

[Scorch]

Hmm, I must say, them deploying in the DZ, especially with the minelaying variant is the thing that really makes
them seem a bit OP (to me at least). Especially since they almost always succeed due to WIP 15. The problem I see with changes here is that the assassins are a very potent choice with Vanilla Haqq - especially with Saladin involved (who might also change however) - but are really life and death for Hassassin Bahram. So nerfing them will be ok for Vanilla but potentially devastating for the sectorial.

Yep, when I wrote my previous answer I had the Bahram in mind. Vanilla is indeed a full bag of tricks for Haqqislam. I like them that way but I can understand it can be frustrating to see the Strategos + Impersonator combination. Still, there are ways to deal with him (in Vanilla AVA1, so just one will be on the field). Make sure you cover your expensive/important models from all angles. If the Fiday decloaks, you should get him down soon quick enough. Make your Lt at least a 2 wound model if needed, to make him survive the Fiday's first strike, or take one that isn't as obvious.

[NeonPhoenix]

oh man saw the title of this thread and got all excited.....

I'm sure CB had to tread carefully not to neuter impersonation to harshly for the sake of the HB sectorial. I totally agree, if impersonation goes sideways, that will certainly be the death of HB (barring they actually start to add some additional flavour to HB in order to save it). However considering how AD:combat jump got hammered with very high risk/reward.... , i'm sure will see the same here,

[Hordshyrd]

I feel it important to point out there is no minelayer impersonator. There is a fiday with mines but it can only place them with a short skill, thus revealing itself, not deploy a mine when it deploys. Laying mines in your enemies deployment zone can be strong but considering that it has to reveal itself to do it and only has an apccw rather than the expccw it's not necessarily the most attractive prospect.

I would expect the change to impersonation will probably be in line with the infiltration change, fail your roll and get back to the deployment zone, maybe with some added negative modifiers for deploying in deployment zones. Other change I would suggest would be to not allow deployment within ZOC of any visible enemy models, gives them a bit of a chance to actually discover you before you start attacking. But these are just my thoughts not anything I've heard.

[Savnock]

Other change I would suggest would be to not allow deployment within ZOC of any visible enemy models, gives them a bit of a chance to actually discover you before you start attacking.

That right there is an excellent suggestion. At least one solid move order should be required before the assassin can apply his sneak-attack.

[Lampyridae]

Fidays will most probably have Surprise Shot... the CC side of it may change a bit too since we're not 100% sure of how all these rules work together.

[Chris]

Laying mines in your enemies deployment zone can be strong but considering that it has to reveal itself to do it and only has an apccw rather than the expccw it's not necessarily the most attractive prospect.

IMHO, this is really the most dangerous of the Fidays, since he is relatively easy to use and can wreak Havoc on clumped troops. I think it will be fun, though when they lose the ability to combat camo smoke grenades on you. Since IMP has no modifiers except (probably) the -3 to all reaction because of the surprise shot, it could be rather easy for others to "outreact" him.

@Scorch: AVA1 is right, but don't forget Al Djabel ;-) !

All in all, I am ok with the Hassassins to be really effective and dangerous - as I said, I would only tweak the IMP ability somewhat, not hit it over the head with the Nerf bat of death :-). That's the nice thing with Infinity,especially when coming from 40k (as I did): I can name a few things that I think are a little too good, but its all just very little things and they don't really affect the game at all in the big picture. With 40k, you get a new Codex and that will pretty much set your position for years to come and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Scorch]

Restricting deployment only to the outside of enemies DZ will harm the effectiveness of the unit in my opinion.

[Chris]

Yes, of course, thats the idea, right ? :-) Well, you can go up to the edge of the enemies DZ and still cause havoc, especially with mines. It's just not possible to set up perfectly in a small spot that allows you to lay mines completely without danger.

[Errhile]

If there is such a spot, then I'd blame the defender for his poor deployment skills.

If there's no Combat Camo "first strike" effect in the Impersonation, just a -3 surprise shot penalty for Impersonator's opponent, then the "smoke then CC" trick will become way less effective. Which I'd consider a serious nerfing to the Fiday.
The Martial Arts do work different in N3 as well, so the two abilities this unit was relying upon seem to be becoming really, really way less effective. I hope CB will be able to give it a right balance, otherwise Fiday will become a "not worthy of being fielded" unit - even with a serious points drop, they'd turn from one of the trademark Haqqislamite (and Hassassin) units into just another, effectively, Camo Skirmisher, not unlike Farzan or al'Hawwa...

[Chris]

I wouldn't worry too much, the infiltration nerf pretty much hits the whole of Ariadna, as does the new Camo system (and to a degree, the HMG nerf). I still think it will be ok and I play Vanilla Ariadna. I think the new edition will be a lot more about trying to tilt the scales in your favor in encounters and not about pretty "sure and secure" actions as was camo and MA3+ in N2.

[zagdag]

I would almost say its almost 100% that impersonation (and holoprojector) becomes "surprise shot". N3 seems to be moving away from non-FtF rolls when they can (changes to camo, climbing, and MA so far) and honestly I think that's a good thing for the game. Impersonation will stay powerful I am sure, but it could use a little tidy up.

[Errhile]

I wouldn't say the HMG range adjustment nerfs any faction or unit. It simply turns the HMG from the best gun around (best damage, best burst save for HRMC, range second only to sniper rifle) into a tactical option like the rest of them.

As I said elsewhere, untill now, if there was a HMG option for an AD unit, you were really likely to see exactly this option. The rest was a damn rare sight. Now, they are likely to become much more common.

Alas, this doesn't get us any closer in the Impersonation matter.
So far, Fidays were pretty dificult to use - they lived up to their fluff, being able to sneak upon a given target and murder him (provided, of course, it was a 1-wound model), then die. After all, when not protected by their Impersonation, they are soft targets, and their Smoke does little to change it.
How will they work in N3?
We are yet to see.

[SgtHulka]

Remember, too, that losing your Lt. isn't as big a deal in N3, so even if the Impersonation rules stay exactly the same they're already slightly "nerfed".

[Chris]

It's not just about lieutenants, the Fidays are dangerous mostly because they cause chaos and confusion - especially by laying mines. IMHO, the fact that you can deploy in the enemies zone so easily (simple WIP check at 15) makes that too easy. Once again, I am NOT saying you should nerf-club them to death, just tweak them a little. And since AD3 and Infiltration got that tweak already, I could very much see that here, too.

Greetings
Chris

[macfergusson]

I don't see much of a need for change there, really. If anything it will shift the first strike to a surprise shot system like combat camo. The deployment part seems unlikely to change imo.

[Chris]

This is pure speculation, but if you look at the videos (BoW) where the new infiltration is explained, Bostria says that there is supposed to be a risk/reward thing. That is why you now immediately go into your DZ if you fail an infiltration over the middle line (and test is always -3). Based on this, you could argue that it is not really a risk to do a single unmodified WIP check, especially at 15 and with no risk at all to scatter off. However, the potential for damage is huge just by getting into the enemies DZ. Thats where I could see a nerf for IMP.

[Chris]

At least somewhat of an update, seems like impersonation loses the "doesn't scatter even if you fail your WIP-roll" rule and instead throws your assassin back to the own table edge: http://www.lead-rising.com/2014/10/infi ... print.html

It will be interesting to see how superior infiltration will be in comparison and if there could be changes like using the PH value for IMP and possibly getting a -3 modifier for deploying inside the opponents DZ - or maybe even not being able to deploy there ? :-)

[Errhile]

I guess it'll also mean some points reduction for it, then.

Either way, the link doesn't provide an answer to the question that bothers me most: when we can expect N3 to become available.
And knowing the advance time CB tends to give to their major releases, it apparently isn't going to be this year, dammit

[Scorch]

I guess it'll also mean some points reduction for it, then.

Either way, the link doesn't provide an answer to the question that bothers me most: when we can expect N3 to become available.
And knowing the advance time CB tends to give to their major releases, it apparently isn't going to be this year, dammit

I'd hope so!

And I have the feeling CB has learned from their past experience with Paradiso. People complain if its release will be delayed, so they will uphold from a date until they are sure they can deliver.
Besides, it's only October. We have almost 3 more months (quarter of a year) before 2014 ends (and that's the deadline we have been given). BoW Infinity week will be next week, or the week after that. I guess we will see more intel on the release during that week. BoW is a great platform for CB to reach a lot of people, even those that don't tend the forums.

[Claudius Sol]

It's guaranteed to come out this year.

Bostria, Fernando, and most other Corvus Belli members repeatedly say it'll be released by the end of the year (though, that may be Dec 31 23:59:59).

I'd hope nothing happened to cause a delay, otherwise the bemoaners and other negatives will just latch purely on that for the next 3 months.

[Scorch]

I'd hope nothing happened to cause a delay, otherwise the bemoaners and other negatives will just latch purely on that for the next 3 months.

Brrrrr. I'd probably just leave the forums for a while than.

[Harlekin]

It's guaranteed to come out this year.

Cb promised that it'll come out this year. That's faaaaaaar from a guarantee

[Claudius Sol]

But hey, it's something. :3

I remain, as always, ever hopeful.