Operation Icestorm

[jake]

AD3 is going to be a second roll for scatter after the PH test. If you fail you scatter 16" in the direction based on the second roll. All dispersion for AD3 is supposed to be 16" to remove the calculations. AD3 does not specifically put you into your Deployment Zone (unless you scatter there, of course).

A 2nd roll for scatter, after the PH roll? Is that from the video? if so, I must have missed it.

That actually seems pretty strange. Roll PH to deploy via AD3, then make another roll to see if you scatter. Is teh 2nd roll also a PH roll? And what happens if you fail the first roll? Do you simply not deploy? It seems like it would be so much easier to combine the deployment and scatter roll, like it is now.

[Icchan]

Normal PH roll, if you succeed you land where you intended. If you fail, roll again for direction and move 16" to that direction. The 2nd roll is not a skill roll, it's just to pick a direction for your scatter if you failed the landing. You could even use a D10, but it doesn't matter.

[Lord Sessadore]

I'm really, really glad they've separated the scatter direction roll. Scatter being a perfectly predictable spiral tasted pretty sour when I first realized it works that way.

Static 16" scatter distance I'm not as keen on, but I still see it as an improvement. I would have preferred to see something to randomize distance - either based on failure category of initial roll or another roll (say 5"+1/2 the roll or something).

Still, overall an improvement.

[jake]

Normal PH roll, if you succeed you land where you intended. If you fail, roll again for direction and move 16" to that direction. The 2nd roll is not a skill roll, it's just to pick a direction for your scatter if you failed the landing. You could even use a D10, but it doesn't matter.

I see it now. That does make sense.

I'm also not keen on the 16 inch scatter distance. I fail AD3 rolls all the time and rarely scatter that far. Right now most troops will have to roll an 18, 19 or 20 to scatter that poorly.

[Icchan]

We thought of a quick optional house rule at our club that sounded pretty reasonable:
Your scatter distance is 24" minus your physical stat. The end result is a little shorter for most minis, but 24 sounded easier to remember (being a multiple of 8) than 28 for example

[solkan]

Normal PH roll, if you succeed you land where you intended. If you fail, roll again for direction and move 16" to that direction. The 2nd roll is not a skill roll, it's just to pick a direction for your scatter if you failed the landing. You could even use a D10, but it doesn't matter.

I see it now. That does make sense.

I'm also not keen on the 16 inch scatter distance. I fail AD3 rolls all the time and rarely scatter that far. Right now most troops will have to roll an 18, 19 or 20 to scatter that poorly.

But that's appears to be the point: Failing the AD3 roll and coming down approximately where you wanted isn't a very bad outcome.

Both this change and the change to Infiltration seem to be about increasing the "order cost" of failing the roll.

[jake]

Normal PH roll, if you succeed you land where you intended. If you fail, roll again for direction and move 16" to that direction. The 2nd roll is not a skill roll, it's just to pick a direction for your scatter if you failed the landing. You could even use a D10, but it doesn't matter.

I see it now. That does make sense.

I'm also not keen on the 16 inch scatter distance. I fail AD3 rolls all the time and rarely scatter that far. Right now most troops will have to roll an 18, 19 or 20 to scatter that poorly.

But that's appears to be the point: Failing the AD3 roll and coming down approximately where you wanted isn't a very bad outcome.

Both this change and the change to Infiltration seem to be about increasing the "order cost" of failing the roll.

Yes, but... Infiltration increases potential order cost, but removes all risk to the model. The model will either land exactly where you want it to or be safely deployed in your DZ. Which is fine. But people (including Carlos) keep saying this is riskier, and I'm just not seeing it.

AD3 simply became much more risky, with failure meaning that your model not only land no where near your target, but will be much more likely to scatter off the board or into a very dangerous position. This makes AD3 even more unreliable than it was before, and much less attractive. I took AD3 units all the time, even though they often fail their rolls and die before doing anything, because the risk was often worth the reward. Now the risk is so much greater, this doesn't seem like a good option at all. Of course, we'll have to wait and see the full rules before we can tell for sure. Maybe EVO is giving a larger bonus to AD? But, that won't help Combined Army, and the idea of buying both a Hacker and a drone just to make AD viable isn't attractive.

Wait and see, I guess.

[macfergusson]

Losing one order permanently vs. losing multiple orders to move up a model that "should have already been there" is actually pretty close in terms of penalty in a 3 turn game. On top of that, add in the potential for AROs against those multiple orders to move that model up.

AD3 is supposed to be risky. That's why I often simply down-rank to AD2. High risk high reward for AD3, or reduce your risk and maybe come in on a somewhat less ideal location.

On a side note, N3 changes mean that Van Zant Lt tactical jump may finally be ITS viable...

[IJW Wartrader]

[Yes, but... Infiltration increases potential order cost, but removes all risk to the model. The model will either land exactly where you want it to or be safely deployed in your DZ. Which is fine. But people (including Carlos) keep saying this is riskier, and I'm just not seeing it.

I'm pretty sure I already posted this up-thread somewhere, but in case I didn't...

In 2nd edition, infiltrators that go over the halfway line typically infiltrate as far forwards as they possibly can, right up to the edge of the enemy DZ. They'll still have 45-50% chance of making the PH roll but even if they fail, a roll of 14-17 or 15-18 (depending on the exact position) will force them into the enemy DZ so they stop at the edge, exactly where they already were. In other words, there's only a 30-35% chance of not arriving in the right place.

If going second this usually means a Direct Template Weapon (Chasseurs, Prowlers) covering any Fireteams or Triads. If going first it usually means someone with Mines just round the corner from where you want to deploy your troops, or even a Mine already deployed just outside your DZ covering the best deployment spots, via Minelayer.

In N3 that's all gone. Fail the PH roll and your infiltrator is way back in your DZ, on the edge so it's probably not in cover and might not even be out of sight. I didn't catch whether they're also out of camo.

So yes, they're 'safe' but the opportunity cost for going over the halfway line is much higher.

[jake]

I'm not agreeing with you guys about the risk of infiltration in N3, so I wonder if it's a play style difference?

[Errhile]

So yes, they're 'safe' but the opportunity cost for going over the halfway line is much higher.

They're safer by not being in front and out of camo.
It is riskier, because if you fail, all the points (and combat group slot) you spent on the guys Infiltration ability are, basically, lost - he's back to your Deployment Zone, and not up front there (where you intended him to be).

[IJW Wartrader]

Jake - Errhile summed it up well, but in 2nd edition there was pretty much no risk when deploying infiltrators hyper-aggressively, they were very likely to end up where you wanted them.

Now they can end up having wasted their actual Infiltration skill.

[McNamara]

Its not that much of a waste, if they are equipped with a Sniper rifle now.

[Errhile]

You mean I'll have a reason to field al'Hawwa Sniper now?
...apart from the mine-around-the-corner, that is...

[ski2060]

Losing one order permanently vs. losing multiple orders to move up a model that "should have already been there" is actually pretty close in terms of penalty in a 3 turn game. On top of that, add in the potential for AROs against those multiple orders to move that model up.

AD3 is supposed to be risky. That's why I often simply down-rank to AD2. High risk high reward for AD3, or reduce your risk and maybe come in on a somewhat less ideal location.

On a side note, N3 changes mean that Van Zant Lt tactical jump may finally be ITS viable...

Tactical Jump Van Zant + 2 Boarding shotgun Spetznas guys? Hmmmm ...

[macfergusson]

On a side note, N3 changes mean that Van Zant Lt tactical jump may finally be ITS viable...

Tactical Jump Van Zant + 2 Boarding shotgun Spetznas guys? Hmmmm ...

Yeah, or something like that. Maybe an HMG paracommando for cheap burst, and a Spetz+BS for brutally high BS shots.

Van Zant + BS Spetz + FO Paracommando + LGL Paracommando = offensive + specialist team delivered anywhere on the board. Lot of orders burned though. Maybe drop the LGL.

[Claudius Sol]

Its not that much of a waste, if they are equipped with a Sniper rifle now.

Ah, but then you wouldn't be deploying them halfway up field with a sniper rifle, would you? Unless they're super awesome and get sniper rifles as well as some sort of short range weapon that's not a pistol?

New meta? Cover your own deployment zone with a sniper rifle from your opponent's side of the board?!

[Icchan]

Depending on the game table, there might be a really good sniper perching spot in the middle of the board that you want to take.

[macfergusson]

Depending on the game table, there might be a really good sniper perching spot in the middle of the board that you want to take.

Middle of the board is a terrible sniper placement.

[IJW Wartrader]

Generally, yes. Even in 2nd edition that made it relatively easy for the enemy to get within the 12" +0 range band. Now with 16" they can do it from within their own DZ.

[ElectricPaladin]

I used to put snipers in the middle until I learned what a bad idea it was. With snipers moving to actually getting a penalty in their nearest range band, it became an even worse idea. If you must infiltrate your sniper, put them in a corner. In most cases, snipers with infiltrate just use it to start the game in that awesome tower just outside your deployment zone, so you're not wasting any orders getting into position (like you sometimes have to with, say an intruder sniper, if you get unlucky in terms of deployment zone).

[ski2060]

I wonder if there will be any Para drop troopers with smoke coming for Ariadna? Maybe amongst the Airborne units for US-Ariadna? Drop in, pop a smoke, then start running amok in the backfield.

[macfergusson]

I wonder if there will be any Para drop troopers with smoke coming for Ariadna? Maybe amongst the Airborne units for US-Ariadna? Drop in, pop a smoke, then start running amok in the backfield.

I keep saying this so I have no idea where I have and have not posted it, but, N3 rules are going to make Van Zant ITS viable, and he could bring in a Spetznaz BS and Paracommando FO for example. That's a pretty powerful little group to drop in right on top of your opponent.

[Section9]

Its not that much of a waste, if they are equipped with a Sniper rifle now.

I barely deployed the Guilang sniper outside of my own DZ most of the time, anyway. Just to put the range sweet spot where it needed to be, he needed to be either in your DZ or just outside it.

I wonder if there will be any Para drop troopers with smoke coming for Ariadna? Maybe amongst the Airborne units for US-Ariadna? Drop in, pop a smoke, then start running amok in the backfield.

I keep saying this so I have no idea where I have and have not posted it, but, N3 rules are going to make Van Zant ITS viable, and he could bring in a Spetznaz BS and Paracommando FO for example. That's a pretty powerful little group to drop in right on top of your opponent.

Assuming that AD:TacJump hasn't changed.

[macfergusson]

Assuming that AD:TacJump hasn't changed.

Why do you want me to be sad?

[ski2060]

Yes, I replied to your post about VZ becoming more appealing in N3.
I was just wondering if there will be an AD troopers coming that have smoke grenades or Light Smoke GL on them to come in the backfield with VZ.

None of the current offerings carry smoke at all, correct?

[McNamara]

The Rasyat has Zero-V-Smoke.

And Margot got a LGL, but she is only a Paratrooper.

[Lampyridae]

The Rasyat has Zero-V-Smoke.

And Margot got a LGL, but she is only a Paratrooper.

Yuan Yuans too.

[leigen_zero]

Just had a thought.

If Scatter on AD3 is a flat 16" distance in a random direction, and (assuming) ad3 features in the icestorm models somewhere.

On the operation:icestorm playmat (which I believe to be 24" by 32"), wouldn't there be significantly more chance of scattering off-table?

Given that there is no point on the playmat at which you are 16" away from every single board edge, kinda makes sense. Especially if you scatter towards a long edge.
(granted a normal 48"x48" table is much less chance)

[macfergusson]

The new Pan-O Starter kit includes a model for Akalis drop troop.