Operation Icestorm

[ToadChild]

Read somewhere that it was AP+Viral.

Now you're just making things up. That doesn't even make sense.

[Math Mathonwy]

I really don't get all the fuss over what, how or why CB makes females miniatures.

I feel like if you're really that interested in promoting equality amongst the sexes your efforts and energy could be better spent then on a message board for a miniature game.

Maybe someone likes female minis but doesn't like them to be strutting? Which is a fairly reasonable point of view, don't you think? And voicing your concerns in a place where people responsible might read them sounds like a good strategy.

[Mob of Blondes]

CB has gone nuts, we know. AP+viral, silly scales, compulsive female strutting, what next?

It was a pleasure to meet you, female alguacile capable of shooting. Also the fusilier.

[Ben Lehman]

I really don't get all the fuss over what, how or why CB makes females miniatures.

I feel like if you're really that interested in promoting equality amongst the sexes your efforts and energy could be better spent then on a message board for a miniature game.

OK. You don't get the fuss. I do get the fuss.

I like the have representation in my little SF armies. I think it's absurd that gender proportions in Infinity, 200 years in the future, are more male-skewed than in modern militaries. I try to build lists with fairly even gender proportion: call it a fluff concern, I just think it's ridiculous that sexist attitudes about combat skill will last for even 50 more years, let alone 200 (fortunately I play Nomads so this isn't that hard, although still harder than I'd like.) I think it's sad that CB's gender-ratio (in models) is getting more and more male-skewed, and I'd like to see that trend reversed. So, yes, I'm going to say "I'd like to see more female and non-male models."

I'm really sad that they didn't manage, say, a female Grenzer or a female ORC or some such. I was planning on buying the box to introduce a friend to the game, and, despite the models being really attractive, I'm not sure I'm still going to do it. I don't want to have to apologize to him for bad representation, which he will notice and comment on. So, yeah, that sucks for me.

CB is not responsible to my desires, concerns, or frustrations. But that doesn't mean I (or jake, or anyone) shouldn't speak up about my desires, concerns, and frustrations. That's ridiculous.

(edit: added a very important "not")

[Zen79]

I recommend the Shasvasti sectorial - they have no gender at all!

[macfergusson]

I recommend the Shasvasti sectorial - they have no gender at all!

Speculo has a whole lotta gender going on there

[Ben Lehman]

I recommend the Shasvasti sectorial - they have no gender at all!

I like the Shas fluff so much, but in practice the models are pretty gendered (particularly the "female shas" like Sheskin and the Speculo.) Also, I don't really like how most of the Shas models look. Also also, I already have two armies (Vanilla Nomads and Vanilla Haqq) and I'm not really looking to pick up another one (although I might get a small White Banner Army force because I'm a Qing history nerd. Depends on how the models look and if, yes, I can reasonably get at least a 30% female force.)

yrs--
--Ben

[Lampyridae]

Now what is interesting is that all the previous Nomad starters (vanilla and sectorial) have had an even balance between male and female. This is the first Nomad starter that will break that pattern with only 1 female.

I also noticed that both the new starters only have one female. Excellence of the sculpts notwithstanding, I would've really liked to see 2 or 3 females in each.

But I also don't play either faction, so maybe my opinion doesn't count.

CB knows that female sculpts are top sellers. I believe it must be purely down to ease of assembly for beginners. The anorexic supermodel arms are a pain to assemble. Note how now of the female models has a 3-point connection. The all-sausage troop boxes are due to compatibility issues. Haqq is pretty bad for this (Kaplans, Sekbans, Druze), especially when they're noted for their female sculpts.

[Zen79]

I recommend the Shasvasti sectorial - they have no gender at all!

Speculo has a while lotta gender going on there

Oh, but that's just fake gender to trick stupid humans.

[Lampyridae]

The Speculo could be either gender in Shasvastii terms...

[chromedog]

Or both. Shasvastii are hermaphroditic.

[McNamara]

I am with Ben Lehman on this subject, and I play Shasvastii partly for this reason too.

[ElectricPaladin]

I also agree with Ben. I think that representation is important. If we want this hobby to be less of a sausage fest, we need to make it clear via the models and the art that non-male people are welcome. If you actively don't want this hobby to be less of a sausage fest... you're a bitter basement-dwelling troglodyte and I honestly don't care what you think.

I suppose if you passively don't care, you're alright.

Anyway, I think Infinity is probably the best game out there for this right now. It's not perfect, but CB is certainly doing better than GW (the only all-female army has been neglected for years, one third of the supposedly mixed armies has a sharply limited number of female sculpts) or PP (supposedly a semi-egalitarian fantasy setting, but few to zero female troopers), and that's not even bothering to think about the many cheesecake-fests and bad-anatomy-theatres that show up from time to time. I have it on pretty good authority from people with a better sense of what women find attractive that male and female models in Infinity are reasonably close in terms of sexualization vs. heroic idealization. Female models are rarer and have a certain pose bias, but that's still head and shoulders above the rest of the industry. Not enough yet, but worth considering.

[Guarda de Assalto]

Well I'm glad I'm still entitled to my apathy =)

Addendum: As a civil servant it's my single greatest gift to the world.

[Darkvortex87]

You want a girl power army? Take bakunin and go with a full riot grrls link then every match you can call your opponent a sexist when he shot you

[Space Cowboy]

I just assume 60% of my HI are female. Having said that, in my universe (head) powered armour is gender neutral.
Fixes the gender imbalance right up!

In all seriousness though, chicks shootin', chicks stabbin', chicks glancing around corners, chicks appearing to be in actual, you know, combat? More please!

Getting tired of seeing chicks posing, even if they are mind blowing sculpts like the two in O:I.

[daktanis]

I don't want to have to apologize to him for bad representation, which he will notice and comment on. So, yeah, that sucks for me.

I think CB is doing a pretty good job on female models, especially when we compare it to GW. CB probably could do a little more, but the range as a whole is pretty inclusive and I don't think they should constrain themselves to forcing each box set to be 50/50 gender split.

[Pierzasty]

PP (supposedly a semi-egalitarian fantasy setting, but few to zero female troopers)

Well, my army has a whole 1 male caster, the rest are women

In all seriousness though, chicks shootin', chicks stabbin', chicks glancing around corners, chicks appearing to be in actual, you know, combat? More please!

Getting tired of seeing chicks posing, even if they are mind blowing sculpts like the two in O:I.

Also, this. Attractive women do not belong on catwalks only.

[Splod]

This is getting dangerously close to 'that' thread...

[FatherKnowsBest]

This is getting dangerously close to 'that' thread...

Yep.

[McNamara]

I told you you should have brought it over here.

[ElectricPaladin]

PP (supposedly a semi-egalitarian fantasy setting, but few to zero female troopers)

Well, my army has a whole 1 male caster, the rest are women

There are a couple of factions that can go that way, it's true. But keep in mind that there are supposed to be female trenchers, female winterguard, etc etc.

PP is better than some, but CB still surpasses them.

[FellintoOblivion]

I really don't get all the fuss over what, how or why CB makes females miniatures.

I feel like if you're really that interested in promoting equality amongst the sexes your efforts and energy could be better spent then on a message board for a miniature game.

OK. You don't get the fuss. I do get the fuss.

I like the have representation in my little SF armies. I think it's absurd that gender proportions in Infinity, 200 years in the future, are more male-skewed than in modern militaries. I try to build lists with fairly even gender proportion: call it a fluff concern, I just think it's ridiculous that sexist attitudes about combat skill will last for even 50 more years, let alone 200 (fortunately I play Nomads so this isn't that hard, although still harder than I'd like.) I think it's sad that CB's gender-ratio (in models) is getting more and more male-skewed, and I'd like to see that trend reversed. So, yes, I'm going to say "I'd like to see more female and non-male models."

I'm really sad that they didn't manage, say, a female Grenzer or a female ORC or some such. I was planning on buying the box to introduce a friend to the game, and, despite the models being really attractive, I'm not sure I'm still going to do it. I don't want to have to apologize to him for bad representation, which he will notice and comment on. So, yeah, that sucks for me.

CB is not responsible to my desires, concerns, or frustrations. But that doesn't mean I (or jake, or anyone) shouldn't speak up about my desires, concerns, and frustrations. That's ridiculous.

(edit: added a very important "not")

So what have you done to advance gender equality in the here and now? Im going to go with little to nothing. So pardon my dismissal of your faux outrage over a miniature game.

[Claudius Sol]

Guys, let's keep the thread on topic, shall we?

From what we learned yesterday thanks to Bostria, factions seem to be now taking advantage of the 3D computer sculpting and building up from the bases of other designs. Such as the alguaciles being built up into the mobile brigade and more strongly with the fusiliers being built up into everything else in the PanO starter.

I don't think we've really seen this design philosophy much before, right?

[wackenandy]

Kinda like this philosophy. Especially for more uniform armies like Pan-O or Morat. It makes the whole looks more together.

[FellintoOblivion]

I also agree with Ben. I think that representation is important. If we want this hobby to be less of a sausage fest, we need to make it clear via the models and the art that non-male people are welcome. If you actively don't want this hobby to be less of a sausage fest... you're a bitter basement-dwelling troglodyte and I honestly don't care what you think.

I suppose if you passively don't care, you're alright.

Anyway, I think Infinity is probably the best game out there for this right now. It's not perfect, but CB is certainly doing better than GW (the only all-female army has been neglected for years, one third of the supposedly mixed armies has a sharply limited number of female sculpts) or PP (supposedly a semi-egalitarian fantasy setting, but few to zero female troopers), and that's not even bothering to think about the many cheesecake-fests and bad-anatomy-theatres that show up from time to time. I have it on pretty good authority from people with a better sense of what women find attractive that male and female models in Infinity are reasonably close in terms of sexualization vs. heroic idealization. Female models are rarer and have a certain pose bias, but that's still head and shoulders above the rest of the industry. Not enough yet, but worth considering.

You're making the baseless assumption that some kind of forced equality in gender representation is going to make a huge difference in the amount of women playing or that it's even a major issue in why they don't currently play. The people playing the game have way more of an impact then the sex of the models you can barely notice when actually playing the game. Girls just don't want to hang around claustrophobic game stores with anti-social nerds with questionable grooming habits (who still make up the majority despite the proliferation of "nerd culture").

[spektr]

Guys, let's keep the thread on topic, shall we?

From what we learned yesterday thanks to Bostria, factions seem to be now taking advantage of the 3D computer sculpting and building up from the bases of other designs. Such as the alguaciles being built up into the mobile brigade and more strongly with the fusiliers being built up into everything else in the PanO starter.

I don't think we've really seen this design philosophy much before, right?

I'm alright with it as long as it doesn't go too far. I like to be able to look at an opponent's models and tell straight away whether each one is of the same or different unit as another. With some factions (e.g. Pan-O) that is somewhat difficult already, and if they make them all too similar I won't be happy. This is a skirmish level game after all, it's supposed to be about individuals doing glorious and heroic things.

[Space Cowboy]

Let's put it this way.

Operation: Icestorm features a Mobile Brigada and an ORC, both males, both in what I would term overtly masculine poses (the 'come at me bro' or a variation of). This balances well with the rather demure poses of the two ladies. I personally don't see an issue there. Both sexes sexing.

Why then can't a fusilier and an Alguacile have two X chromosomes and aim their weapons? Again for some balance?

[ElectricPaladin]

I also agree with Ben. I think that representation is important. If we want this hobby to be less of a sausage fest, we need to make it clear via the models and the art that non-male people are welcome. If you actively don't want this hobby to be less of a sausage fest... you're a bitter basement-dwelling troglodyte and I honestly don't care what you think.

I suppose if you passively don't care, you're alright.

Anyway, I think Infinity is probably the best game out there for this right now. It's not perfect, but CB is certainly doing better than GW (the only all-female army has been neglected for years, one third of the supposedly mixed armies has a sharply limited number of female sculpts) or PP (supposedly a semi-egalitarian fantasy setting, but few to zero female troopers), and that's not even bothering to think about the many cheesecake-fests and bad-anatomy-theatres that show up from time to time. I have it on pretty good authority from people with a better sense of what women find attractive that male and female models in Infinity are reasonably close in terms of sexualization vs. heroic idealization. Female models are rarer and have a certain pose bias, but that's still head and shoulders above the rest of the industry. Not enough yet, but worth considering.

You're making the baseless assumption that some kind of forced equality in gender representation is going to make a huge difference in the amount of women playing or that it's even a major issue in why they don't currently play. The people playing the game have way more of an impact then the sex of the models you can barely notice when actually playing the game. Girls just don't want to hang around claustrophobic game stores with anti-social nerds with questionable grooming habits (who still make up the majority despite the proliferation of "nerd culture").

Wow, maybe we should go ahead and have "that thread" somewhere.

I think that you are making a baseless assumption about what girls will and won't do. The miniatures wargaming community is so overwhelmingly sexist right now that we have no idea what girls might do if it wasn't. I know a lot of girls who might be interested in this hobby - or might have been interested, if they hadn't been turned off to it at an early age - were it not fundamentally, obviously, materially sexist.

I also think that "you can't tell the model's sex" is a pretty facetious argument coming from anyone who has been in this subculture for any length of time. How long do we spend agonizingly painting tiny details on our models, posting on forums about which models are better and why, and how much the detail has improved or degraded with different casting techniques, admiring each others' models online and in person and asking for advice, etc etc etc? The model is a huge part of this hobby, and you know it. How can you even imagine that if a huge proportion of the models are male, or if the female models are shoe-horned into sexualized or passive poses, or if the female model lines are neglected, that is not going to send a clear message to females who might be interested in these games?

Come on, man. Think it over.

[Machinist]

Kinda like this philosophy. Especially for more uniform armies like Pan-O or Morat. It makes the whole looks more together

I liked how Bagh Mari wasn't a Bolt or Nisse with a different helmet or without a coat. Kamau isn't a Fusilier with a manta helmet for instance. The detail was what originally attracted me to PanO.

"Hey, these have more loosed look compared to others. Why is that?"
"Ooh. They're that BIG! I suppose it makes sense with having armies, not to mention cultures that are adept at fighting in different planets or different situations that other parts might be unfamiliar with. Perhaps even representing different mentality of army lobbies... hmm. I like you guys."

After watching the designing Icestorm video, I can see their motivation but I'm kinda sad they went with it. It never bothered me that my army wasn't build from the same mould. YMMV.