New camo rule and other rule rumors

[Amanchanamun]

If the new camo rule rumors are correct, it will mean as below.

with the priority for ariadna, combined army ofcourse, camouflaged and especially to units have more chance to hide themselves. they are a bit more stronger in any case.

Neurocinetics and total reaction units are more stronger. They can react with many bursts to attacks which they could die before in their hands.

Tohaa triads now have a chance to react with 6 bursts to any attack with face to face. It will mean tohaa is more stronger now and their main disadvantage is over now.

there is a little chance that, attacked units can be able kill hits attacker. So any v:dogged, no wound inc. camouflaged unit is more stronger now. Because it may have nice second chance after the initial bad attack rolls. Units like naga, dasyu, hac tao are more stronger now.

Snipers are more deadly for sure. Atlanta can hit any uncover unit with any dice result. Gao reel, linked lasiq snipers seem very deadly. Hexa sniper, new spetnaz are very strong now.

[Errhile]

Could you please post the altered rules?

[IJW Wartrader]

I assume he means the original rumour of a -3 penalty to the targets instead of a first strike effect.

Unfortunately for Tohaa triads it doesn't really help them for shooting v. shooting and only increases the odds of surviving if they Dodge.

[Certs]

Camo attacks may be feared less, but that might just mean more people choose to 'wait' to see if you'll attack. That'd make moving around while camouflaged a little easier to do for getting around enemy positions to attack from the sides.

Either way, it's still a hard choice between waiting or discovering and being attacked unopposed, as long as you aint walking into a mass of AROs.

[Amanchanamun]

Hello. here it is.

This is what we have so far from IJW's event will update and clarify as new stuff comes up, New thread to keep all in one place.


STUFF FROM PRESENTATION

Combat Camo
------------
from what i remember it becomes a "suprise shot"
shooting will be face to face but have a -3 to hit. Sounds weaker but prevents revealing from camo, not doing any damage then being
killed by an unopposed reaction shot. Means revealing from cover would give a -9 to peoples response shots, can get to -12 if you get range advantage.

Cannot remember if this stacks with a -3 from camo.

Also all modifiers are possibly being capped at +12 and -12


Snipers
--------------
getting a range reduction - maximum range is dropped by 8" to 96".
(However, this can still cover all of a 6' by 4', and the penalty for maximum range is dropped to -3)

The +3 range band is now 32" long (8" longer) and it starts slightly further out, at 16". It is, however, now the Long range band, not the medium range band.

Short range takes a -3 penalty, Medium range a flat 0. Given the earlier statement about range bands seeming to standardise to multiples of 8", I'm sure you can make an educated guess about where these start and end.

Also they are getting cheaper

EASIER TO UNDERSTAND BOUNDRIES
0 - 8 / -3
8 - 16 / 0
16 - 48 / +3
48 - 96 / -3


MSV1
---------------
MSV1 reduces combat camo and TO camo by -3



kINEMATIKA
---------
Kinematika is a new skill, the Father-Knight from Ice-Storm has it, supposedly at Level 1. So he goes 1 inch further with every ARO Dodge.
Has levels



BTS
---------------
Are now posivite stats
interventors are bts 9



Combi Rifles
----------------
Ranges are changing, mainly in ranges


Loss of LT
-------------------
Turn of irregular orders
free luitenant at end of turn
using lt order now reveals LT




ASSUMPTIONS AND WILD SPECULATION
-Religious may change slightly
-Hacking or viral may have stat tweeks to deal with high BTS interventor
-All or some models will have tweaks or price drops to accomodate for weapon adjustments

[Machinist]

kINEMATIKA
---------
Kinematika is a new skill, the Father-Knight from Ice-Storm has it, supposedly at Level 1. So he goes 1 inch further with every ARO Dodge.
Has levels

This is silly.

[Errhile]

kINEMATIKA
---------
Kinematika is a new skill, the Father-Knight from Ice-Storm has it, supposedly at Level 1. So he goes 1 inch further with every ARO Dodge.
Has levels

This is silly.

No, I can't agree with that. It definitely helps Dodging into Close Combat, something CC-oriented models will be very fond of. As for now, you can only ARO Dodge up to 2" - which rarely is enough to get you into CC with a single use.
It will also help you gain Total Cover as a result of a successful ARO Dodge.

Not a bad - or stupid - thing on its own. Pricing and availability of this skill, now that's another kettle of fish, but this we are yet to see.

[Machinist]

Why would you want to go in CC in the first place? I simply don't see much use, models typically stay further away. Unless you leap frog to them, which is silly. CB and their dancing knights®.

[macfergusson]

As for now, you can only ARO Dodge up to 2" - which rarely is enough to get you into CC with a single use.

No, you can only ARO Dodge up to half your MOV, which could be more than 2".

[Errhile]

Yes, if you're a REM or TAG, or Exrach (up to 3", effectively) and if you're on a bike, that's even 4". But generally, most models can dodge up to 2". +1" for a L1 Kinetika means a +50% advantage...

Now, why would you like to dodge into close combat?
Because it is a great equalizer. Imagine a guy shoots at you - 3 shots with a Combi. If you Dodge away, you might be able to gain Total Cover, or maybe not. The guy will then come after you, and repeat the attack - and you might get less lucky Dodging it again... But if you jump into CC with him, he won't have the Active Turn Burst advantage over you. More over, he would become locked in CC untill one of you is dead. And if you're a Knight, there is a good chance you will be one having an upper hand in CC!

I recall a situation early in my Infinity experience:
I used an al'Hawwa hacker to Camo Hack a Magister Knight - and failed. Subsequent Orders have seen the Magister expending both of his Panzerfaust warheads in response to my frantic Boarding Shotgun pumping (Magister took a wound) then dodging into CC... it was the moment when I wrote al'Hawwa off (by a miracle, he scored a crit on CC).

[Penemue]

If the new camo rule rumors are correct, it will mean as below.

with the priority for ariadna, combined army ofcourse, camouflaged and especially to units have more chance to hide themselves. they are a bit more stronger in any case.

Could you explain your reasoning for this? I think that Camo is different (not stronger, not weaker): I dislike the lack of first strike from otherwise-average-Ariadna troops, but I'm curious to see how the extra -3 penalty and FtF rolls shake out.

[macfergusson]

Yes, if you're a REM or TAG, or Exrach (up to 3", effectively) and if you're on a bike, that's even 4". But generally, most models can dodge up to 2". +1" for a L1 Kinetika means a +50% advantage.

It is an important distinction, as I've seen multiple players who thought ARO Dodge was actually just always 2". But when you have units like Vector Operator, Pretas, Cameronians, Dog-Warriors, Wallace, yada yada...

If the new camo rule rumors are correct, it will mean as below.

with the priority for ariadna, combined army ofcourse, camouflaged and especially to units have more chance to hide themselves. they are a bit more stronger in any case.

Could you explain your reasoning for this? I think that Camo is different (not stronger, not weaker): I dislike the lack of first strike from otherwise-average-Ariadna troops, but I'm curious to see how the extra -3 penalty and FtF rolls shake out.

Toadchild ran the math on what we know so far when this was first revealed, the F2F with an advantage setup instead of first strike actually works out to fairly equivalent if not safer on average for the camo troop. Definitely will be interesting to see the full picture.

[Errhile]

I hope, however, that we're not going to lose the Camo Marker idea...

[Penemue]

If the new camo rule rumors are correct, it will mean as below.

with the priority for ariadna, combined army ofcourse, camouflaged and especially to units have more chance to hide themselves. they are a bit more stronger in any case.

Could you explain your reasoning for this? I think that Camo is different (not stronger, not weaker): I dislike the lack of first strike from otherwise-average-Ariadna troops, but I'm curious to see how the extra -3 penalty and FtF rolls shake out.

Toadchild ran the math on what we know so far when this was first revealed, the F2F with an advantage setup instead of first strike actually works out to fairly equivalent if not safer on average for the camo troop. Definitely will be interesting to see the full picture.

This might factor in regular bursts, but does it include FO as well?

(I'm still of the mind that it's not a nerf, but a change. Just want to test all the cases, is all.)

[macfergusson]

This might factor in regular bursts, but does it include FO as well?

(I'm still of the mind that it's not a nerf, but a change. Just want to test all the cases, is all.)

It was for a variety of bursts, I don't recall everything that was tested, but at worst it seemed the proposed change had about the same likelihood of survival as previously. I think, before I make any further judgments about the situation, I need to see how DTW is changing as well.

[takezo]

I can't imagine a good reason for camo markers to disapear, it's like a part of infinity's dna for me.

Also, since "surprise attack" is way simpler to apply than first strike i wish it will works on reactive turn too.

[Penemue]

This might factor in regular bursts, but does it include FO as well?

(I'm still of the mind that it's not a nerf, but a change. Just want to test all the cases, is all.)

It was for a variety of bursts, I don't recall everything that was tested, but at worst it seemed the proposed change had about the same likelihood of survival as previously. I think, before I make any further judgments about the situation, I need to see how DTW is changing as well.

That's true. If they go FtF on DTW, things may change with the way some factions have to deal with Camo. Then again, MSVs are changing a bit, from what I hear, so it's all still...up in the air.

[Amanchanamun]

The thing which makes ariadna and other ch troops stronger is they are maintaining their camo status afterwards.

[macfergusson]

The thing which makes ariadna and other ch troops stronger is they are maintaining their camo status afterwards.

Where did you hear that?

[Machinist]

Now, why would you like to dodge into close combat?
Because it is a great equalizer. Imagine a guy shoots at you - 3 shots with a Combi. If you Dodge away, you might be able to gain Total Cover, or maybe not. The guy will then come after you, and repeat the attack - and you might get less lucky Dodging it again... But if you jump into CC with him, he won't have the Active Turn Burst advantage over you. More over, he would become locked in CC untill one of you is dead. And if you're a Knight, there is a good chance you will be one having an upper hand in CC!

I recall a situation early in my Infinity experience:
I used an al'Hawwa hacker to Camo Hack a Magister Knight - and failed. Subsequent Orders have seen the Magister expending both of his Panzerfaust warheads in response to my frantic Boarding Shotgun pumping (Magister took a wound) then dodging into CC... it was the moment when I wrote al'Hawwa off (by a miracle, he scored a crit on CC)].

I think the story only shows how unreliable CC is and a scenario you don't want as PanO to be in. I don't want to risk getting a critical hit by whoever is attacking me, must I really mention that in this situation 1" wouldn't make any difference, until I either get into total cover or tie a unit that is either much cheaper or better at CC than me. Or did he tie me? I still need to deal with him in my active turn and CC is rather unreliable.

[Claudius Sol]

I think the story only shows how unreliable CC is and a scenario you don't want as PanO to be in. I don't want to risk getting a critical hit by whoever is attacking me, must I really mention that in this situation 1" wouldn't make any difference, until I either get into total cover or tie a unit that is either much cheaper or better at CC than me. Or did he tie me? I still need to deal with him in my active turn and CC is rather unreliable.

I can think of a few examples, but let's say you're wanting to deal with a TR Remote.

You have a TO Crocman nearby and decide to move the crocman into CC with the remote. Chances are, the TR Remote will hold most of it's AROs in the gamble that the Crocman will reveal himself. Now, the Crocman, not trusting his hacking ability decides the best thing to do is trigger the TR Remote's electric pulse subroutine, preventing it from shooting. The TO Crocman is relatively safe in CC with the remote so long as he does not perform a CC attack. The TR Remote must either Dodge (at a -6 PH and thus likely at PH 7 or lower) or use his Electric Pulse (which has no possible detriment to the Crocman so long as he does not attempt to hit the Remote). Meanwhile, the Crocman in CC is incurring a -12 modifier to anyone attempting to shoot him. If someone does try shooting, if they land dice within 6 above their target number, they'll end up shooting the remote! The TR Remote is efficiently neutralized as far as the rest of the team is concerned. It's LoF is limited to Base Contact.

Let's change it up a bit and say we have a knight (perhaps our trusty father knight from Icestorm). He's being hunted by a Naffatun who needs to close in before unleashing firey death. Luckily, the knight manages to survive through dodging/armor rolls to engage into CC with the Naffatun who finds himself in a very uncomfortable position: beneath a blade. The knight was able to do this through a combination or selection of:
1. Acquisition of total cover through dodging, forcing the Naffatun to chase into closer quarters.
2. Utilizing his farther dodge to initial close combat on the opponent's initiative.

Close combat is useful, and not necessarily for killing models.
Dodge is useful, not necessarily for avoiding combat.

Increasing the distance for dodging only makes it better.
At the very least, provides more options in your toolbox. Leverage for your wrench, you might say. I hope someone understands this joke or else I'll just look like a fool

[ToadChild]

This might factor in regular bursts, but does it include FO as well?

(I'm still of the mind that it's not a nerf, but a change. Just want to test all the cases, is all.)

It was for a variety of bursts, I don't recall everything that was tested, but at worst it seemed the proposed change had about the same likelihood of survival as previously. I think, before I make any further judgments about the situation, I need to see how DTW is changing as well.

I did a couple of basic Camo/TO Camo troops attacking LI or HI. I also ran a Swiss Guard with ML shooting a TAG. I didn't think to include any total reaction or neurocinetics troops, which would stand to gain the most. I can paste from the other thread and/or do a couple more scenarios if people are interested.

[MarcoSkoll]

The TR Remote must either Dodge (at a -6 PH and thus likely at PH 7 or lower) or use his Electric Pulse (which has no possible detriment to the Crocman so long as he does not attempt to hit the Remote).

Not strictly true...

- What happens if a model does not have a CC Weapon, or does not wish to use its Electric Pulse?
It may attack with its PH-2 doing normal damage.

That said, not that scary with a remote's PH.

[ToadChild]

I'm curious, so I'm going to run some numbers here.  I'm going to assume that the "surprise attack" -3 penalty to fire back stacks with Camo, otherwise there is no bonus to attacking from a marker state at all.  I'm also going to assume that other "surprise attack" mechanics will be the same, so TO Camo, Impersonators, and MSV+Smoke.
 
 
 
First, let's set a scenario.  A Zero Sniper is shooting an Orc Trooper with an HMG.  Both models are in Cover and at their weapons' +3 ranges.  This is a tough scenario, since the Orc has 2W and high stats.
 
Plain FtF roll, no combat Camo:
The Zero has a 44% chance of winning the FtF and inflicting at least one Wound, with an 18% chance of killing the Orc outright.  The Orc has a 19% chance of killing the Zero.  (Details)
 
Combat Camo, 2nd Edition:
Zero shoots first, and has a 26% chance of dealing 2 wounds and killing the Orc outright.  If the Orc takes 0 or 1 wound, they have about a 26% chance of killing the Zero on return fire.  (Details)
 
Both models have a higher chance of dying in this situation; Combat Camo vs. a 2W model is very high risk/high reward.
 
Surprise Shot, N3:
Zero and Orc have a FtF roll, but with an additional -3 BS to the Orc.  The Zero now has a 53% chance of wounding and 23% chance of killing.  The Orc's chance of killing the Zero goes down to 12%.  (Details)
 
This is a small but nice bonus, with less "swing" to the results.  As the Zero's player, I would rather take this shot than the current first strike effect.
 
 
 
 
Now we'll do a second one, where a Spektr Hacker is engaging with a Fusilier FO as the two fight over a central objective.  Both still have cover, but are shooting Combi Rifles in their +3 ranges.
 
Plain FtF roll, no combat Camo:
The Spektr has a 61% chance of winning the FtF and dropping the Fusilier.  The poor Fusilier is shooting back at BS 6 and can only kill the Spektr 6% of the time. (Details)
 

Combat Camo, 2nd Edition:
The Spektr's chance to kill the Fusilier goes up to 65%, while the Fusilier's remains at about 6%.  (Details)

 
In this situation, first strike barely makes a difference.
 
Surprise Shot, N3:
The Spektr takes out the Fusilier 63% of the time, and the Fusilier gets the kill about 5% of the time.  (Details)
 
It still makes a pretty minimal difference from the baseline.
 
 
 
Overall conclusion:
It looks like it's not going to be a huge change in the overall results and balance, while possibly helping to get rid of some of the confusing timing issues that surround Combat Camo.  If you frequent the rules forum, you know that this is the sort of stuff new players always are asking about.
 
The biggest change will be that Combat Camo Direct Template Weapons will be greatly reduced in power.  The Sphinx and Prowlers may have to rely on their BS weapons more often instead of resorting to Flamethrowers all the time.



That's a good one I didn't think of - Swiss ML vs. a TAG - Raicho in this case.  Both models have Cover and +3, and the Raicho is shooting EXP rounds in ARO (of course).
 
 
 
Basic FtF:
Swiss guard has 52% to to wound, 2% to kill.  Raicho has 5% to wound and 2% to kill.  (Details)
 
Combat Camo, 2nd Ed:
Swiss Guard has 57% to wound and 2% to kill.  Raicho has 33% to wound and 14% to kill.  (Details)
 
The Raicho is MUCH better off with the Swiss taking the first strike option.  Strange but true!
 
Surprise Shot, N3:
Swiss is at 54% to wound and 2% to kill.  Raicho goes down to 4% to wound and 2% to kill.  (Details)
 
It's a small buff over the basic FtF, but much preferable to the current situation.
 
 
 
Of course these numbers would change to look more like the Orc or Fusilier scenarios if the Raicho had previously been wounded.




IJW:

Assuming you're shooting an cheaper trooper in their +3 range then the Swiss ML is a few percent worse off.

First strike: http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/?p1.faction=Panoceania&p1.unit=Swiss+Guard&p1.w_type=W&p1.type=HI&p1.cc=15&p1.bs=15&p1.ph=14&p1.wip=13&p1.arm=5&p1.bts=-6&p1.w=2&p1.w_taken=0&p1.symbiont=0&p1.operator=0&p1.immunity=&p1.hyperdynamics=0&p1.ikohl=0&p1.ch=-6&p1.msv=0&p1.hacker=2&p1.marksmanship=0&p1.ma=0&p1.action=bs&p1.first_strike=1&p1.weapon=Missile+Launcher&p1.stat=BS&p1.ammo=AP%2BEXP&p1.b=1&p1.dam=14&p1.range=8-32%2F%2B3&p1.link=0&p1.viz=0&p1.gang_up=0&p1.evo=0&p1.cover=3&p2.faction=Nomads&p2.unit=Alguaciles&p2.w_type=W&p2.type=LI&p2.cc=13&p2.bs=11&p2.ph=10&p2.wip=13&p2.arm=1&p2.bts=0&p2.w=1&p2.w_taken=0&p2.symbiont=0&p2.operator=0&p2.immunity=&p2.hyperdynamics=0&p2.ikohl=0&p2.ch=0&p2.msv=0&p2.hacker=2&p2.marksmanship=0&p2.ma=0&p2.action=bs&p2.weapon=Combi+Rifle&p2.stat=BS&p2.ammo=Normal&p2.b=1&p2.dam=13&p2.range=0-8%2F%2B3&p2.link=0&p2.viz=0&p2.gang_up=0&p2.evo=0&p2.cover=3

-3 Surprise Shot: http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/?p1.faction=Panoceania&p1.unit=Swiss+Guard&p1.w_type=W&p1.type=HI&p1.cc=15&p1.bs=15&p1.ph=14&p1.wip=13&p1.arm=5&p1.bts=-6&p1.w=2&p1.w_taken=0&p1.symbiont=0&p1.operator=0&p1.immunity=&p1.hyperdynamics=0&p1.ikohl=0&p1.ch=-6&p1.msv=0&p1.hacker=2&p1.marksmanship=0&p1.ma=0&p1.action=bs&p1.weapon=Missile+Launcher&p1.stat=BS&p1.ammo=AP%2BEXP&p1.b=1&p1.dam=14&p1.range=8-32%2F%2B3&p1.link=0&p1.viz=0&p1.gang_up=0&p1.evo=0&p1.cover=3&p2.faction=Nomads&p2.unit=Alguaciles&p2.w_type=W&p2.type=LI&p2.cc=13&p2.bs=11&p2.ph=10&p2.wip=13&p2.arm=1&p2.bts=0&p2.w=1&p2.w_taken=0&p2.symbiont=0&p2.operator=0&p2.immunity=&p2.hyperdynamics=0&p2.ikohl=0&p2.ch=0&p2.msv=0&p2.hacker=2&p2.marksmanship=0&p2.ma=0&p2.action=bs&p2.weapon=Combi+Rifle&p2.stat=BS&p2.ammo=Normal&p2.b=1&p2.dam=13&p2.range=0-8%2F%2B3&p2.link=0&p2.viz=-3&p2.gang_up=0&p2.evo=0&p2.cover=3

Where it makes a big difference is if the Swiss is in the -3 band for the target, because then you can shoot them while standing in the open and still not be hit. -6 for TO Camo, -3 for range, -3 for Surprise Shot means they would need BS13 or higher to be able to shoot back.

One last one: A Noctifer Spitfire is being used as a "troubleshooter" to remove a Sin Eater HMG (probably the toughest reactive model in the game). As always, both models are in their +3 range and have cover.
 
Plain FtF roll, no combat Camo:
The Noctfer has a 44% chance of winning the FtF.  The Sin Eater has a 25% chance of killing the Noctifer.  (Details)
 
Combat Camo, 2nd Edition:
The Noctifer's chance to kill jumps to 61%, and the Sin Eater remains at about 25%.  (Details)
 
Decent advantage to the Noctifer with no particular downside.
 
Surprise Shot, N3:
Noctifer wins 51% of the time, Sin Eater 18%.  (Details)
 
This result is fairly squarely in between the other two. The Noctifer's kill rate is not as high as existing Combat Camo, but in exchange it has the highest chance of surviving the shootout.

[Penemue]

I see the numbers deal with 2W+ models. What about a scenario wherein a Zero Combi fires at a 1W model, something comparable? And another wherein the Zero Combi fires on a Total Reaction remote (bs 11, str 1)?

I'm curious to see how those would shake out, as my Camo firing targets are more commonly 1W threats and TR remotes (rather than 2W toughs and TAGs).

[ToadChild]

I see the numbers deal with 2W+ models. What about a scenario wherein a Zero Combi fires at a 1W model, something comparable? And another wherein the Zero Combi fires on a Total Reaction remote (bs 11, str 1)?

I'm curious to see how those would shake out, as my Camo firing targets are more commonly 1W threats and TR remotes (rather than 2W toughs and TAGs).

Post is updated, I have a Spektr vs. Fusilier and a Noctifer vs. Sin Eater.

[Penemue]

Interesting results. Thank you!

[Machinist]

@ Sol. Very, very, corner case scenario and there's a big IF for the Knight. Dodging at -6 and surviving fire heavy template under current rules, very likely at least two times and being in just that position? Yikes! Unless there's more to it I'm going with silly rule and any point spend for the ability is a point too much.

[Errhile]

While I do like the current Combat Camo rule, I see from the calculations then new one is pretty likely to be better.

Shiny.

Changing topic - I've heard some rumours that Shotgun rules are to be rewritten. You could understeand that, as a (mainly) Haqqislam player, I'm vitally interested in details
Any news on that?

[MarcoSkoll]

The rumour, albeit a pretty strong one, is that shotgun short range will become +6.

If true, then I doubt the Rifle+LSG combo is going to be seen as much of a tax in N3 - all in all, with the almost certainty that all rifles will get the extended -3 range, that's actually going to be a fairly mean weapon. Roll in my hopes for some AP ammo re-costing, and I may well have an even harder time of talking myself out of Asawira Doctors in my ITS lists.