Is there a shameless / evil human faction?

[Force de Frappe]

Hello all - a bit of a strange fluff question.

I only play Ariadna, vanilla and French flavours. There are no "good" factions in Infinity, I know that. The Combined Army are pretty obviously aggressive and antagonistic. Ariadna are trying to repel invaders - other human factions are all engaged in proxy wars and highly questionable dealings.

However - I just watched Elysium - and the sheer nastiness of the South African mercenaries in their dropship made me want to have an antagonistic, nasty human mercenary faction with that kind of near future tech style. I understand there are Yuan Yuan or pirates of some kind - but they seem a bit of a mish mash aesthetically and I'm not sure they appeal to me.

Any suggestions?

[Hero of Man]

The Druze and Scarface are part of a pretty remorseless group who murdered a lot of civilians during the Ariadna Commercial Conflicts, pretty sure. I think their merc group is called the White Stars, and that they're planned to be a Merc Sectoral/Contract in 2014.

[Maine]

Outside of Mercenaries, the factions themselves represent large portions of humanity and have fairly complex backgrounds, internal politics, and interactions in the Infinity universe. With the exception of ALEPH and CA, I don't think any whole factions can be considered 'good' or 'evil', in the same way you can't really look at any modern country and call it 'good' or 'evil'; perhaps it's government is questionable, but the country and it's people itself are not.

ALEPH acts without emotion and, (supposedly) for the survival of humanity. For ALEPH, the end justifies the means - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In that regard ALEPH could be considered 'good', even if the actions it takes along the way are morally or ethically questionable.

CA is just a tool for the EI, and the EI is effectively 'evil' - it's actions are entirely to support a selfish goal with no ultimate regard for the species it has conquered.

That all said, because all factions are relatively vast in scope, look instead to the existence of splinter groups within these factions, and the units that those groups might consist of. There are easily many groups more than large enough to build a force around, but too small to be worth mentioning in the official lore. The motivations and ethics of these smaller groups are more easy to determine. These groups do not have to be part of the governmental structure within that faction, and could even be at odds with it, but may have members within the governmental structure. Religions fanatical groups and racial superiority groups are prime examples.

[Arachas]

ALEPH is a big computer that controls everything and requires total compliance. How is that not evil?

[Force de Frappe]

@Arachas

Haha, sorry man but I'm such a fan of benevolent dictator AIs that I'm on the pro-Aleph side!

@Maine

Thank you, that is a very well thought out and written answer. I suppose you mean to say that the Sphere is open to interpretation and I could make any kind of army/list and have lots of freedom to make up a suitable background. At the moment I still barely understand the game rules and am committed to Ariadna, but if Merc sectorials do appear next year - the White Star sounds like a good basis!

[Pierzasty]

The EI is on a quest for transcendence, the only goal that matters. How is that not good?

[SgtHulka]

Isn't the ISS like the Gestapo on steroids? I don't have a lot of the fluff, but that's kind of what I've picked up reading the boards.

[Wolverinelll]

Because....killing, destroying, genocide, and slavery on other living things that are in their own pursuit of truth is utterly evil and selfish. I always loved people who pronounce "the ends justify the means" as a good thing. This is absolutely the writing of a psychopath if you really think about it. So if you are not a psycopath why would this idea ever be ok?

[Pierzasty]

@SgtHulka: On steroids? You know little about the Gestapo. ISS is just your vanilla police/secret police in an authoritarian country.

@Wolverinelll: Because you're the hyperpower, that's why

And seriously, it depends on whether you're human. Mentality varies a lot. You got races who care about the spiritual and emotional development of other species (truly, not like Tohaa), and you've got races that do not recognize other species as sentient.

Remember that we don't have the full information. For example, if the EI is certain of the impending doom of the universe, then transcendence is a matter of survival and sacrificing millions of planets/sentient races is OK if it means you can save something you can rebuild from, instead of letting everything be totally destroyed. Lesser evil. (Why yes, I do play Shasvastii)

And yes, the ends do justify the means, it's just the means' consequences have to be added to the ends. (As for human reasoning, sorry, I don't understand that one )



The awesome thing in Infinity is that every faction has their own good and evil side. I stopped playing 40k when they wrote all the new codexes from the imperial perspective - soooo boooring. That said:


Is good because: Democracy, popular opinion counts, welfare, good standard of living/education/culture/etc.
Is evil because: Stereotypical US military-industrial complex, exploit everyone else because your profit, fuck you got mine, and screw the ateks (go be poor somewhere else). ALEPH's slave, ruled by evil (is there any other kind?) corporations and an anachronistic church.


Is good because: Preserves tradition and culture, you can actually live here as a human instead of a data piece in the corporations'/marketers'/politicians' databases
Is evil because: Secret police, dissidents tend to "disappear" in secret prisons, better toe the party line, lots of official propaganda


Is good because: they actually reformed their faith to care for both spiritual and material side of life, relative freedom, philosophical/scientific
Is evil because: very influenced by a secret sect of murderers (so much for "religion of peace"), fanatics (making kids into parent-hating Janissaries etc.), biological warfare


Are good because: The only humans not to get under ALEPH's influence, free thinkers, total freedom as long as you don't endanger the ship, create that which others won't dare
Are evil because: Most of their soldiers are war criminals of the worst kind, fight against ALEPH regardless of the risk to human sphere, religion that encompasses all the psychopatic elements that were thrown out of the PanO church, money laundering, large-scale criminal organizations (inc. Tunguskan mafia and the Black Hand), also furries.


Is good because: "Salt of the earth", low tech and survival-oriented -> more honest out of necessity, most resemble the humans we know i.e. no implants and not jacked into the internet 24/7
Is evil because: they'd have destroyed themselves from infighting if not for clear military imbalance in favor of the Russians, antagonizing the local sentient race and attempted genocide, can't make an organized society to save their ass


Is good because: without it the whole Human Sphere would function 100x worse, allows organized intersystem transport, keeps order and relative peace
Is evil because: it's actually Skynet in disguise and needs humans mainly for psychosociological experiments; the moment we're no longer necessary we're dead


Is good because: Is on a quest for transcendence, a much more important goal than mere materialistic survival
Is evil because: generic space invader, does not care for the races which it subjugates/destroys


Are good because: they form the most of the actual resistance against the EI, highly evolved, diplomatic, uplift other species to give them sentience
Are evil because: are religious fanatics bound to some ancient database hardware, the uplifted races are actually slaves/workers/culturally dominated by the Tohaa, have no qualms about sacrificing other races or the holy databases themselves if it serves their secret ends

[Force de Frappe]

Thank you for the summary! I guess the Nomads actually sheltering war criminals therefore makes them the most attractive current option.

[Pierzasty]

Well, not sheltering per se, Corregidor was actually a prison ship, so they quickly divided the "contents" into 3 categories:
- can fight or has useful skills (engineer, technician, pilot)
- can be sold to loyal family/friends who'll revive him or we can be bribed by his enemies NOT to revive (or even space outright) him
- useless, can either be taught something useful or get the hell out of the ship.

The fact that Nomad soldiers kept their dirty style of fighting and prison "culture" is just a consequence,

[Maine]

Thank you, that is a very well thought out and written answer. I suppose you mean to say that the Sphere is open to interpretation and I could make any kind of army/list and have lots of freedom to make up a suitable background.

That's pretty much it. Most factions are much bigger than single modern countries are today, so let's use the modern USA as an example as if it was a 'faction'. In 2012 there were over 1000 recognized hate groups active in the US. KKK, New Black Panthers, Neo Nazis, holocaust denial, anti-gay, etc. Then there are organized criminal gangs - mafia, large street gangs, biker gangs, etc. None of these groups are government sanctioned and many are outright criminal, but some have access to governmental resources (through influence or infiltration), or they simply have the resources to act independently within or without the law. Then you have private military contractors...

You want a shameless/evil human faction, you don't have to go much further than a racial superiority hate group or radicalized ideological organizations.

Some ideas:

- Yu-jing Yakuza. Drugs, prostitution, gambling, smuggling, with a very strong 'Japanese only' membership vibe.

- Nomad's super-extremist religious sect - so extreme even the regular cult considers them heretical

- PanO unauthorized inquisitorial organization

- Yu-Jing or PanO corporate military force, carrying out out the dirty work

- Corregidor military gang

[Pierzasty]

- Yu-jing Yakuza. Drugs, prostitution, gambling, smuggling, with a very strong 'Japanese only' membership vibe.

Like the Triads would suffer dirty Japs on their turf

Then again, a Japanese criminal organization would be a fun idea. Balancing between the ISS and the Triads, hoping to set the situation so that any serious Triad attack would provoke ISS retaliation...

[SgtHulka]

@SgtHulka: On steroids? You know little about the Gestapo. ISS is just your vanilla police/secret police in an authoritarian country.

You're right, I didn't know that the Gestapo had dudes in powered armor and mind-controlled political dissident suicide bombers

[SgtHulka]

I wanted to quickly add my intention isn't to disrespect or belittle the real-life victims of the Gestapo, nor the heroic efforts of those who resisted them. There's a big difference between having fun/fiction/playing a game and genuine historical evil.

[Pierzasty]

Sure man, it's just a game, just like playing WW2 Waffen-SS in Flames of War does not make you a neo-Nazi, I realize that even if living in a city where you often see "WW2 site of civilian massacre" type memorial tablets does inflict a certain perspective. At the same time I'm sure that there's quite a bit of darkness we're not told of in Infinity fluff, including ISS and their victims (or their relatives) would feel otherwise.

[Section9]

@SgtHulka: On steroids? You know little about the Gestapo. ISS is just your vanilla police/secret police in an authoritarian country.

You're right, I didn't know that the Gestapo had dudes in powered armor and mind-controlled political dissident suicide bombers

IIRC, the Gestapo had dudes in tanks, not to mention every single child reporting on their family and friends. If we wanted to get nasty and political, I'd ask how the US is any different from the IS. Look at any SWAT team, they're equipped with the same weapons and armor as the US military (hence, Powered Armor for the IS)...

If you've read the fluff about the founding of the IS in Paradiso, the true crime that the Golden Daggers Triad committed was to be obvious. They attacked a courthouse. See, most asian governments will tend to ignore 'organized crime' organizations that act more like neighborhood associations. If they keep the crime rates down, and pay for the repairs if a place burns, they're 'good' mobsters. When they're running a brothel, selling drugs, and letting street crime run rampant, they're 'bad' mobsters.

[Pierzasty]

IIRC, the Gestapo had dudes in tanks, not to mention every single child reporting on their family and friends.

Well, I'm Polish, so I have a different perspective on that "children reporting on their families". Kind of a JSA-point of view

If we wanted to get nasty and political, I'd ask how the US is any different from the IS.

The general populace is not that brainwashed/scared yet

If you've read the fluff about the founding of the IS in Paradiso, the true crime that the Golden Daggers Triad committed was to be obvious. They attacked a courthouse. See, most Asian governments will tend to ignore 'organized crime' organizations that act more like neighborhood associations. If they keep the crime rates down, and pay for the repairs if a place burns, they're 'good' mobsters. When they're running a brothel, selling drugs, and letting street crime run rampant, they're 'bad' mobsters.

Well, Yu Jing has a reasonable attitude. It's impossible to get rid of all the corruption and organized crime. They only want to keep them manageable.

[kidterminal]

The same attitude the Japanese government has today.

[Force de Frappe]

This is kind of going off topic a bit - what I meant was groups being used as tools of government like in Elysium, rather than a secret state / secret police force like the Imperial Service are.

[McNamara]

I haven't seen elysium yet, but the druze are definitely what your looking for. Use QK for now and switch into white star, when it comes out. The main problem with making a list with Druze is that you probably want Hafza too, and they are rather good guys. (having a elitist Hafza isn't a far stretch though). Or you could use a Mobile Brigada as a though mercenary lord in power armor as your Lt. Al hawwa a pretty generic, so they can kinda always be used, I find.

Wildcats might be possibility too. They are pretty ruthless. Corregidor is no Elysium though, even if its in space too, so might have to be a bit creative with them.

[Pierzasty]

Haven't seen Elysium, but if you want nasty human black ops groups/mercenaries, you have:
- Druze - pretty much guaranteed to be #1 on the list. "We are bad men, but we can be worse"
- Corregidor - where war criminals of the worst kind happened to be the most skilled soldiers.
- Hexaedron - join special forces, get carte blanche as long as you don't jeopardize hyperpower's interests or we'll kill you ourselves and sweep it all under the carpet.
- Imperial Service, but you said that's too official for you
- Hassassins? Depending on how you want to look at it, they may be tools for actual ruthless govt.

[McNamara]

- Hexaedron - join special forces, get carte blanche as long as you don't jeopardize hyperpower's interests or we'll kill you ourselves and sweep it all under the carpet.

I think your on to something here, since NeoTerra is rumored to get their own "Wildcat-Like" MI-Link Team, it could be rather fitting. From what I recall they are called NeoTerra Bolts, and it might be highly likely that they are, or at least can represent pretty much a government/big corp kill team.

I wouldn't bet on it that we see them this year, but maybe before the new book.

[Scorch]

I think your on to something here, since NeoTerra is rumored to get their own "Wildcat-Like" MI-Link Team, it could be rather fitting. From what I recall they are called NeoTerra Bolts, and it might be highly likely that they are, or at least can represent pretty much a government/big corp kill team.

I wouldn't bet on it that we see them this year, but maybe before the new book.

Now that sounds awesome! =D Really looking forward to these MI-link units. I love the NeoTerran fluff, but have some difficulties with making a good working army list for them. I always feel there is something missing.

[McNamara]

So I managed to see Elysium today, and I think Druze are pretty much it. Scarface has definitely some Kruger traits, maybe without the dreads he would even make a good mini for him. Druze are just evil, and have pretty much the tech they desire, already. Djanbazan could work too though, if you want that healing element Kruger has.

What I really like to have after watching the movie is a favela rooftop table. I had the idea before, and its not really unique, but a table full of little rooms and levels going up and down from table edge to table edge seem just so damn cool to me now.

[Pierzasty]

Discussion about favela tables took flight and landed here.

[McNamara]

Well, Scarcrow is now doing just what I had in mind. He also made me look at the Druze art with Valerya in Human Sphere again, and in that picture the Druze are kicking in a door of a favella exactly like the Mercs in Elysium, so there you have it!

[Section9]

Scarface+Druze+QK to taste is usually a good recipe for 'morally challenged'/'alignment impaired' folks.