Operation Icestorm

[IJW Wartrader]

Basic maths says that it has to be a cap on the total. Otherwise the order of operations would change the result and that's not possible with basic addition/subtraction.

[macfergusson]

Basic maths says that it has to be a cap on the total. Otherwise the order of operations would change the result and that's not possible with basic addition/subtraction.

I would agree, and that is how I expected it to be, but there are some people who look for loopholes in every wording choice. I have a couple in my local.

[MarcoSkoll]

There's some question if it is a cap on the FINAL modifier, or during calculations.

It'd be bloody stupid if it weren't the final modifier, as during calculations would make the end result depend on which order you added the modifiers together in.

[macfergusson]

There's some question if it is a cap on the FINAL modifier, or during calculations.

It'd be bloody stupid if it weren't the final modifier, as during calculations would make the end result depend on which order you added the modifiers together in.

Basic maths says that it has to be a cap on the total. Otherwise the order of operations would change the result and that's not possible with basic addition/subtraction.

I would agree, and that is how I expected it to be, but there are some people who look for loopholes in every wording choice. I have a couple in my local.

[MarcoSkoll]

I am aware the question is answered. But as both a mathematics enthusiast and a Brit, I felt more use of the words "bloody stupid" was needed.

[macfergusson]

The only thing that will shut some people up is a direct rules quote that precisely contradicts their stance. It can be frustrating.

[IJW Wartrader]

If their grasp of maths is that bad, why the bleep would a rules quote help?!?

[Barakiel]

This doesn't necessarily apply to this thread, but I'm quite surprised at the negative reaction a lot of players are having to Surprise Shot (or whatever we're calling the new Camo rule.)

In my opinion, it remains useful as an ability as an alternative to combat camo.

Far more importantly, I think we're seeing CB make a general move towards putting power back in the hands of Vanilla. Vanilla lists, without much access to 6th Sense Level 2, were disproportionately vulnerable to Combat Camo since every model in their list tended to be vulnerable to it. Sectorials, by contrast, could often rely on including 5 models on overwatch to Discover incoming Camo troops, with the guarantee of a Face-to-Face roll if that Camo Marker opted to attack. Now, single troops v Camo at least have a fighting chance with a face-to-face roll, and Vanilla armies can also load up on Smoke and MSV2 troops who will do a great job defending against Surprise Shot.

[macfergusson]

If their grasp of maths is that bad, why the bleep would a rules quote help?!?

Because some people are difficult and like to argue, I guess? Believe me, I'm not fond of the conversation. There have been multiple times where I throw up my hands in frustration and just stop trying, but, y'know, they aren't going anywhere.

[solkan]

To quote from the page clearly visible at 45:36 on the Friday video:

The total sum of all Modifiers applied to a Roll can never exceed +12 or -12.

I suggest practicing reading the rules aloud in a calm and clear manner. You may need the practice on being calm while dealing with these people, anyway.

Edit: Disclaimer: I've been in the same situation and had to read rules out loud to the other player to get them to believe a rule was the way I said it was.

[macfergusson]

To quote from the page clearly visible at 45:36 on the Friday video:

The total sum of all Modifiers applied to a Roll can never exceed +12 or -12.

I suggest practicing reading the rules aloud in a calm and clear manner. You may need the practice on being calm while dealing with these people, anyway.

Haha, nice catch. Thanks.

[jake]

Kinda like this philosophy. Especially for more uniform armies like Pan-O or Morat. It makes the whole looks more together.

There is a difference between having a uniform look and simply reusing a model in a way hat doesn't make sense. What they're doing is working pretty well for Pan O, where the Sihk, Nisse, Bolts, etc really are wearing the same suits of armor with small changes (different helmets, jump packs, etc). The changes provide character and help define the units unique roll. It doesn't work well for the Suryat, which just reuses the Sogarat model with small changes (a new helmet, the removal of shoulder pads, the addition of a box on the gauntlets). Where the Pan O medium infantry are all using the same model to represent troops that all have very similar profiles and are mostly differentiated by a single skill (AD 3, MSV2, etc), the Suryat and Sogarat are as different as two HI can get. Using the same model to represent the heaviest HI in the game and the lightest HI in the game is just strange. Yes, they should share design elements, but I really don't think they should use the same base model. It doesn't help that the Suryat looks so much like the Sogarat that many people assumed it was a resculpt of the Sogarat HMG model.

[jake]

I think CB is doing a pretty good job on female models, especially when we compare it to GW. CB probably could do a little more, but the range as a whole is pretty inclusive and I don't think they should constrain themselves to forcing each box set to be 50/50 gender split.

I agree that hey do a pretty good job. And I love most of their female models, sexy or not (even the Minuteman that everyone seems to hate). But...

Why is that a constraint, to include more female models? how would the be constraining themselves, at all? And also, why shouldn't CB do this? Every time they make a new model they're making a conscious choice to make it either male or female, and a vast majority of the time they're choosing male. Is there any good reason at all to not choose female 50% of the time, (outside of units where gender is based on fluff)? I can't think of one.

[McNamara]

I think you are exaggeration the Sogarat - Suryat issue a little bit. Sure they re-used the armor, out of laziness/economic reasons, but not all people find it that ugly or bad executed. Be careful to not pull a Guges/Kanulwen here! (sorry you two its just so fitting, no hard feelings)


Regarding vanilla vs Sectorial:
MSV1/2 Link teams might just have gone up in stock significantly, if SS2 really negates Surprise Shot.

[macfergusson]

The Suryat is definitely a good looking model on its own. Next to a Sogarat, though, they do look oddly similar. With the new Silhouette denoted on the Profile, we can expect the HMG Soggy and Feuerbach Soggy to all be labeled as Large Humanoid/40mm base, so at a minimum that will be a differentiating factor between Soggy and Suryat.

MSV1/2 Link teams might just have gone up in stock significantly, if SS2 really negates Surprise Shot.

Sixth Sense already negates the first strike effect of combat camo. If they don't use Sixth Sense to negate the Surprise Shot penalty in N3, I'd be really curious to know what direction they are taking that ability.

[nobunaga3.2]

I suggest practicing reading the rules aloud in a calm and clear manner. .

Unfortunately, that doesn't always seem to work

This doesn't necessarily apply to this thread, but I'm quite surprised at the negative reaction a lot of players are having to Surprise Shot (or whatever we're calling the new Camo rule.)

In my opinion, it remains useful as an ability as an alternative to combat camo.

Well I was converted, I suspect a lot of people will be when they see it in action.

Is there any good reason at all to not choose female 50% of the time, (outside of units where gender is based on fluff)? I can't think of one.

or heaven forbid 66-75% of the time - why are female models always maxed out at 50/50

Because profession of a soldier is culturally attributed to male sex in every Earth culture I know about?

Last I looked infinity was set in the future so what exactly does this have to do with anything.

[macfergusson]

The gender thing is going off the rails again...

[nobunaga3.2]

The gender thing is going off the rails again...

good point - O.K. I'll bow out.

[Claudius Sol]

Guys, the topic is Icestorm. Don't let it get out of control, OK? The whole SO thing is a touchy subject for a lot of people. Let's avoid that. Back to Icestorm.

[jake]

I think you are exaggeration the Sogarat - Suryat issue a little bit. Sure they re-used the armor, out of laziness/economic reasons, but not all people find it that ugly or bad executed. Be careful to not pull a Guges/Kanulwen here! (sorry you two its just so fitting, no hard feelings)

I'm not saying that the Suryat us an unattractive model (although I personally don't care for the helmet and new chest detail). Attractiveness isn't the problem. By itself it looks fine. It's in comparison to the Sogarat that it's questionable, and it's a shame that the couldn't design a new model for what is a very different unit instead of just reusing the same model, which isn't really appropriate for representing the lightest HI in the game (or ties for lightest, anyway).

And I really don't think that's an unreasonable or irrational opinion.

[McNamara]

Guys, the topic is Icestorm. Don't let it get out of control, OK? The whole SO thing is a touchy subject for a lot of people. Let's avoid that. Back to Icestorm.

The people that are scared by the subject are part of the problem. And the subject is part of I:O because the only females in that box are posing.
The Reverend and the Bodyguard might have a reason to look like this but, the Line Infantry are a disappointment in my eyes.

That's all I am gonna say on the subject, but it had to be said.

[Machinist]

To add some more fuel:

Let's say a model with camouflage and a sniper rifle is shooting at the model with holo echos.

The sniper shots at the projections.

Does the model with holoprojector still suffers Surprise Shot penalty (note that I could get it wrong and it's -3 to all models that want to ARO at the camouflage model ) ?

I'd say yes, but at the same time those shots missed. The ghost howled Buu! but got confused along the way. Maybe the other guy was still: "Dios, someone's here!".

[MattS]

Guys, the topic is Icestorm. Don't let it get out of control, OK? The whole SO thing is a touchy subject for a lot of people. Let's avoid that. Back to Icestorm.

The people that are scared by the subject are part of the problem. And the subject is part of I:O because the only females in that box are posing.

That's all I am gonna say on the subject, but it had to be said.

And the only thing I'm going to say about this subject besides that I agree with McNamara about why this issue is on topic is... I disagree with McNamara because the CSU is not posing. Other than that ton of agreement over on this side.

[Claudius Sol]

To add some more fuel:

Let's say a model with camouflage and a sniper rifle is shooting at the model with holo echos.

The sniper shots at the projections.

Does the model with holoprojector still suffers Surprise Shot penalty (note that I could get it wrong and it's -3 to all models that want to ARO at the camouflage model ) ?

I'd say yes, but at the same time those shots missed. The ghost howled Buu! but got confused along the way. Maybe the other guy was still: "Dios, someone's here!".

Ah, I see what you're saying. I'm pretty sure all models attempting to ARO against the revealing camo model would be affected by the -3 modifier. Even though the shots performed by the camo model don't hit anything, it's a surprise, either way!

[macfergusson]

Ah, I see what you're saying. I'm pretty sure all models attempting to ARO against the revealing camo model would be affected by the -3 modifier. Even though the shots performed by the camo model don't hit anything, it's a surprise, either way!

[Claudius Sol]

Ah, I see what you're saying. I'm pretty sure all models attempting to ARO against the revealing camo model would be affected by the -3 modifier. Even though the shots performed by the camo model don't hit anything, it's a surprise, either way!

Pretty sure that's one of (if not) the best gifs out there.

[daktanis]

Every time they make a new model they're making a conscious choice to make it either male or female, and a vast majority of the time they're choosing male.

Sorry for derailing, but at least its with facts not just opinion.

I just counted nomads, I understand other factions may be more biased, I choose nomads cause I like em.

Male Models: ~38
Female Models: ~39
Adorable robots: ~12
(though the furries were hard to tell, and tags don't count)

Everybody calm down. I suppose if more discussions needs to happen we could make a new thread or pm.

[IJW Wartrader]

Let's say a model with camouflage and a sniper rifle is shooting at the model with holo echos.

The sniper shots at the projections.

Does the model with holoprojector still suffers Surprise Shot penalty (note that I could get it wrong and it's -3 to all models that want to ARO at the camouflage model ) ?

All you need to do is check if it's a FtF roll:

If yes, suffer the -3 Surprise Shot modifier on top of any other modifiers.
If no, there is no Surprise Shot modifier.

[Claudius Sol]

Oh! Does the Surprise modifier only affect FtF rolls? That seems odd to me, but I don't have Icestorm yet.

[macfergusson]

Oh! Does the Surprise modifier only affect FtF rolls? That seems odd to me, but I don't have Icestorm yet.

Further incentive to choose your targets carefully when revealing.