Dealing with Board Control

[Spambot]

I ran some basic sniper link lists against a friend of mine who is starting with Haqq, and he had heaps of trouble with it.

One was a five Ghulam link w/ 3 Sniper Rifles, the other a simple Tohaa Triad w/ Gao Rael Sniper (MSV, 2 Wounds) and two Sniper Kamael (Line Trooper). He just failed hard and died constantly to this stuff.

Since I'm no expert on Haqq, wondering if you guys can help me out. What do you do when your opponent has the board locked down with a bunker full of ARO weapons?

[Errhile]

Deny him ARO. That's the simplest, most elegant and most effective method. Use Cautious Movement and / or Smoke to advance to your targets. Also, choose avenues of approach that don't grant him AROs. Since no overhanging / leaning over an edge of a roof is currently allowed by the rules, once you get close enough, he won't be able to see you. Then apply a Direct Template weapon - either a Mine, or a Flamethrower / Chainrifle / Nanopulser...

Or achieve the same with an Aerial Deployment model dropping anywhere out of this sight. Preferably one armed with Direct Template weapon (in QK, Yuan Yuan are just frikkin' perfect for that application).

Or pick them one-by-one from behind a vertical cover, using a high-ROF weapon, preferably a HMG.

Or try the same with a Camo Sniper (pretty risky, as 5-model Link will have 2 Burst and +3 to hit, not to mention you won't be getting Combat Camo advantage).

Either way, with each model lost, the Link becomes substantially weaker.

I do, of course, assume that there is enough terrain on the table to allow such maneuvers...

[CannonFodder]

My favorite is Smoke grenades, preferably via LGL. It works well against most models except MSV2. So the Ghulam sniper squad is out for a turn. But the Gao-Rael will still see you unless you can get zero-V Smoke. I rarely play a game without smoke .Drop on from a safe spot blocking LOS and you can move your team into what was their kill zone without having to worry. But every time I play against and MSV linked team (combined army) I have issues.

There is also the rarely used Cautious Movement, it will get small areas without being shot. This depends on terrain.
http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/Cautious_Movement

Lastly don't forget the Coordinated Order. its another basic rule that is overlooked. It reduces the number of AROS you get for the action. Yes you lose the BS, but if you do a Short move and dodge, you reduce your AROS and make it threw the kill zone.
http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/Coordinated_Order

[Errhile]

The problem is the Ghulam Link of 4+ models will be replying in Face-to-Face should a Gao-Rael use his MSV L2 to shoot them thorough the smoke screen. That's 6th Sense L2 in action.

[smotku]

Are the sniper link teams controlling the entire board? If so then thats a terrain issue. Otherwise getting close will usually help. DTW armed WB pretty effective such as the aforementioned Yuan Yuan.

Another thing I have used is Spec fire grenades. of course diff armies have different solutions.

[Errhile]

SpecFire grenades are good, but the ranges tend to be short (well, in vanilla Haqq a Hunzakut GL could sort this issue out), and 6th Sense L2 makes the target Link go Face-to-Face with GL attack roll.

Plus I've already seen grenades coming back home due to scatter, and it had costed me a game or three

[Spambot]

Since no overhanging / leaning over an edge of a roof is currently allowed by the rules, once you get close enough, he won't be able to see you

Woah, how does that work? Are you talking about models standing on a rooftop with a... fence or whatever? Or does this apply to models prone on a roof edge too?

What you've suggested now is pretty much what I suggested to him. Of course everything failed due to bad dice (eventually I had to disable crits, he was being critted constantly), and being new he sees it as just being unsuccessful counters not worth using again

My favorite is Smoke grenades, preferably via LGL.

I was well aware of smoke (I run warband heavy lists constantly!)... but hadn't considered the extra utility of the longer ranged smoke launcher. Thats pretty legit.

Are the sniper link teams controlling the entire board? If so then thats a terrain issue.

They were actually. I'm very new to setting up open boards and the first board at least was just a nightmare. Although that one he took the sniper tower with a Lasiq link, that I broke via a Yuan Yuan. After that I broke up the LoS a bit and it became more manageable, but could still easily be too much on the open end of the spectrum. However, even when I got the crappy board edge without a dominating sniper position, they just rolled.

Since I'm not really onto it regarding Haqq (this was my first QK list), I can't really suggest to my friend what models he should be taking for his vanilla "toolbox". What do you guys reckon are good sources of smoke, a dominating direct fire HMG, and such?

The best counter that comes to mind is a mine Fiday. He can smoke, blocking the links LoS to the board, and place mines so when they ARO later they go pop. I was so paranoid about these damn dudes that I was putting meat shields behind my sniper link to prevent it making B2B contact. This got them so lumped that a rocket, fired into an unconscious model on the roof edge (which is super legit), blew like 4-5 dudes apart.

Of course, this astounding success is completely forgotten in the next game when the Fiday failed his WIP and died, and the dice went against him. Bleh.

[MarcoSkoll]

The most recent time I had a serious problem with my opponent's board control, I was facing a nastily well placed Cateran who had a very large portion of the table locked down in a Supplies game, and taken out anything with more range than a rifle (save a Panzerfaust that was just plain out of ammo) as well as my smoke throwing Muyib.

Yeah, so following that unfortunate turn of events, I had to try and use some cautious moves to avoid taking more T2 ammo to the face and push up out of the Cateran's line of sight (albeit through several other units*) until I could get a rifle into a favourable range band.
I still lost the game (and rather badly), but it did work, fitting the general approach of denying an opponent AROs until a favourable face-off could be engineered.

* I only realised quite how many other units when James told me how close he had been to retreat at the start of turn 2. By the time she was finally taken down, the Asawira Doc I'd tasked with clearing out the Cateran had scored 127 VP just on her own.

[Errhile]

Since no overhanging / leaning over an edge of a roof is currently allowed by the rules, once you get close enough, he won't be able to see you

Woah, how does that work? Are you talking about models standing on a rooftop with a... fence or whatever? Or does this apply to models prone on a roof edge too?

All the cases.

I'll try to explain that:

Imagine you have a plain ol' box, like a shipping container - flat top with no fence / railing around it. Your model has to have its whole base fully supported by the terrain - you are not allowed position it in a way that makes half of the base just hang in the air. No matter whether you are prone, or not.
Now try to draw a line of sight from the model's central line down to the ground - at some point, the roof's edge will get into your way, prohibiting you from seeing what's going on next to the wall down there. The taller the building is, the bigger the "shadow zone" will be. Sollid railings around the roof's edge don't help either.
You aren't allowed to an imaginary "lean over the edge" with your model to see (and shoot) at the targets you were unable to see due to the edge getting in your way.

While personally I considered the lean over trick to be useful and realistic, it was at some point declared as being against the rules by a CB FAQ.

[Spambot]

I hadn't considered the center point part, we've been playing it from the edge but your way is definitely the correct one.

However, does "reciprocal LoS" change this? If I can see a head sized portion of your base, and I'm in your arc, BOOM, LoS achieved for both models.

Doesn't stop me landing a Yuan Yuan right under their noses, facing away because silly rules shenanigans, then turning and templating though

[Errhile]

Only if you see my base when I'm prone, and provided you actually do see a head-sized portion of it.

...well, I expect the N3 and its silhouette rules will change things a lot

[TheBearIsDriving]

I hadn't considered the center point part, we've been playing it from the edge but your way is definitely the correct one.

However, does "reciprocal LoS" change this? If I can see a head sized portion of your base, and I'm in your arc, BOOM, LoS achieved for both models.

Doesn't stop me landing a Yuan Yuan right under their noses, facing away because silly rules shenanigans, then turning and templating though

Reciprical LOF is also, as I understand it, slightly different.

SO, and I could be wrong. Two units target and sniper. Sniper is on a roof and can't see target. Sniper spend an order, and drops prone. Since Target can see sniper when it declares the order, Target declares shoot as it's ARO. Since Target can see sniper, and has declared shoot as it's ARO, Sniper can now declare it's second short order (probably shoot, but also possibly dodge, etc).

The reciprical rule exists in a state of flux. Of course, I could be wrong. I have been before, and my skills are a bit rusty.

[Spambot]

Nah man, it works like I described it above, not in a common sense manner at all. Really hope they fix it, otherwise I might just propose a homerule at my FLGS because screw this rule.

If I can see the Sniper, the sniper can now see me. I don't have to actually target it or anything, it just gets LoF because I have LoF on it - thats word of god from CB rules designers themselves.

So if I land a Yuan under it's shadow and face it, I get shot, because I can see enough to gain LoF but he can't. If I land under the shadow and face away, I can't see it, so it doesn't gain LoF. At the very least to get around this I can just land so close that I don't have LoF

[TheBearIsDriving]

Fair enough. the example in the book with poor old angus made it seem like the ARO declaration itself was confirmation of the LOF, and thus triggered the reciprical aspects. If you've heard different from" the horse's mouth" then that makes less guss work for me. at least in interpretation ways.

As to board control, I've been there. A friend of mine had a roof top with a couple t2 caledonian HI and the shape of the board basically meant if you could see one, you could see all three. It was one AP HMG and two T2 rifles in a link, and while the rifles weren't in their great range bands, that would still be a lot of dice. in the end I went around, careful moves, and just chose to ignore them during that battle.

It's tough, but sometimes you need to just leave those sleeping dogs lie.

[Willowran]

Just a clarification request. I know that a prone model on the edge of a roof has full LoF straight down/out from the roof, plus cover. In my area, we've just been playing as though models STANDING on the edge of a roof have the same LoF, just not the cover?

[Errhile]

I'd say that a standing model has a better / bigger field of view down.

Something that comes out clearly if you check it with a laser pointer

[Hordshyrd]

I think you might be getting the reciprocal line of fire rule slightly wrong, although maybe I'm RAI-ing this but is the reciprocal lof rule not stated that if a model can draw line of fire to a model it gets to have lof back. so a model facing the wrong way could draw line of fire, but fails to because of facing, wouldn't that still generate return LOF?

[Errhile]

Nope. Otherwise 360-visor wouldn't be included in the game, would it?
Same with 6th Sense L2 used to respond to attacks from outside of your LOF.

[Spambot]

God knows, that rule is an almighty clusterfuck as far as I'm concerned.

Forcing a model to 'draw' LoF through its back in order to slice the pie with 100% efficiency against anything is a whole new ballgame though.

[Penemue]

The "can draw line of fire" is intended for things like Total Cover, obstacles, other models in the way, etc. Basically, it should have read "if you flipped front and rear arcs, and your model could then draw LoF to the enemy model, you can have a reaction." Or something like that.