Hi !
First time poster and new player here.
I'm playing Nomads with particular taste for CAMO and TO units. During my couple of first games I have encountered a list containing MSV3 unit, namely an Aquila Guard. During the gameplay a situation occured:
0-------->X---------->
_______ ______
| | | |
|_______| | ______|
A N
0 - Zero
A - Aquila Guard
N - Nisse
During my active turn Zero under camo marker activates, uses first part of the order to move into the open, then uses the other one to move behind next cover (or, at least, that's the plan). My opponent declares discovery ARO on Aquila after the first half move. Now he states that since Aquila automatically passes his Discovery roll (which I do not object, just cry about it ) his Nisse gets to declare to shoot. Obviously I do not agree. My reasoning is that all ARO happen at the same time, so Nisse can only declare Discovery, dodge or delayed aro. He does not get to shoot, since at the moment od declaring ARO my Zero is still a marker. Even if he delays ARO i do not commit any aggresive action, just keep moving, so his delayed ARO is forfeit. My Zero is discovered, but finishes his order safely behind the other box.
Please, help out a newbie and tell me who's right on this one. If I have not explained the situation clear enough please let me know.
EDIT: Can't get the picture to show properly (works fine with preview)
Yet another Camo vs ARO question
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Last edited by Bramowy on January 29th, 2016, 8:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
In my opinion you are right.
Yep, you are right.
Camo Marker (Zero) declares his 1st Short Skill: Move.
Nisse and Aquila declare their AROs. In the given example, Aquilla declares a Discover ARO, while the Nisse declares Shoot ARO.
Camo Marker (Zero) declares his 2nd Short Skill. Now, let's take 2 options into consideration - Move (2a) and Shoot (2b).
2a, Zero Moves again. Order resolution phase - Aquila automatically succeeds in Discover Roll (damn those MSV L3's). However, this happens at the same moment as the Zero is moving forward, and he reaches his intended destination uninterrupted, if out of Camo.
Nisse keeps his finger on the trigger, but untill the Order gets resolved, he does not see the Zero (he sees a Camo Marker) so he can not shoot.
2b, Zero Shoots. Order resolution phase - Aquila's Discover ARO is wasted, for his target has dropped out of Camo (due to Attack Skill).
If Zero decides to shoot at the Aquila, it will be a Normal roll (with Nisse shooting at Zero with Normal roll too, as his MSV L2 allows him to ignore the -3 modfier for Zero's Camo).
If Zero decides to shoot at the Nisse, it will be a Face-to-Face roll (for Nisse will be shooting back). Nisse's MSV L2 still allows him to ignore the -3 modifer caused by Camouflage, but he will be still affected by another -3 modfier due to Surprise Shot by a Marker.
If Zero decides to divide his Burst, his shots at the Aquila will be Normal Rolls, while shots at the Nisse will be Face-to-Face rolls with -3 Suprise Shot modifer affecting the Nisse.
Camo Marker (Zero) declares his 1st Short Skill: Move.
Nisse and Aquila declare their AROs. In the given example, Aquilla declares a Discover ARO, while the Nisse declares Shoot ARO.
Camo Marker (Zero) declares his 2nd Short Skill. Now, let's take 2 options into consideration - Move (2a) and Shoot (2b).
2a, Zero Moves again. Order resolution phase - Aquila automatically succeeds in Discover Roll (damn those MSV L3's). However, this happens at the same moment as the Zero is moving forward, and he reaches his intended destination uninterrupted, if out of Camo.
Nisse keeps his finger on the trigger, but untill the Order gets resolved, he does not see the Zero (he sees a Camo Marker) so he can not shoot.
2b, Zero Shoots. Order resolution phase - Aquila's Discover ARO is wasted, for his target has dropped out of Camo (due to Attack Skill).
If Zero decides to shoot at the Aquila, it will be a Normal roll (with Nisse shooting at Zero with Normal roll too, as his MSV L2 allows him to ignore the -3 modfier for Zero's Camo).
If Zero decides to shoot at the Nisse, it will be a Face-to-Face roll (for Nisse will be shooting back). Nisse's MSV L2 still allows him to ignore the -3 modifer caused by Camouflage, but he will be still affected by another -3 modfier due to Surprise Shot by a Marker.
If Zero decides to divide his Burst, his shots at the Aquila will be Normal Rolls, while shots at the Nisse will be Face-to-Face rolls with -3 Suprise Shot modifer affecting the Nisse.
They say there will be Heaven and the Fount of Kausar,
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
2a, Zero Moves again. Order resolution phase - Aquila automatically succeeds in Discover Roll (damn those MSV L3's). However, this happens at the same moment as the Zero is moving forward, and he reaches his intended destination uninterrupted, if out of Camo.
Nisse keeps his finger on the trigger, but untill the Order gets resolved, he does not see the Zero (he sees a Camo Marker) so he can not shoot.
I disagree, for this reason. "The cancellation of the Camo State is applied to the whole declared Order" (pg 71 core rulebook). This would allow the delayed Shoot ARO to be resolved, as the Zero would have finished it's order not in the camo state, and travelled through LOF to the Nisse during said order.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - Clan Motto
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H1ghlander - Posts: 176
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H1ghlander wrote:I disagree, for this reason. "The cancellation of the Camo State is applied to the whole declared Order" (pg 71 core rulebook). This would allow the delayed Shoot ARO to be resolved, as the Zero would have finished it's order not in the camo state, and travelled through LOF to the Nisse during said order.
The section you are referencing, if you read the start of it, refers to actions the camo marker takes that cancel the marker state...an enemy Discover is not in the list.
Additionally, from the preceeding page (emphasis mine):
However, if you choose to delay your ARO, you may only declare it if the Camouflage Marker revealed itself with its second Short Skill. If the Marker does not reveal itself, the reactive trooper loses his right to ARO.
- Dylan Gould
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You are correct. From the Discover wiki entry:
The fact that the Aquilla Guard auto-passes his Discover check doesn't negate the fact that he has to declare it. So the example you are giving is identical to Angus passing a Discover and Bipandra shooting which the above quote negates.
In his Active Turn, an enemy Camouflage Marker declares a Short Movement Skill within LoF of Fusiliers Angus and Bipandra.The only AROs available to the Fusiliers are Dodge (to try to relocate slightly) and Discover (to reveal the Marker and be able to shoot at it in subsequent Orders). What they very specifically cannot do is have Angus declare Discover and Bipandra declare BS Attack. Remember that all AROs are simultaneous, and a Marker must be revealed before it can be the target of a BS Attack.
The fact that the Aquilla Guard auto-passes his Discover check doesn't negate the fact that he has to declare it. So the example you are giving is identical to Angus passing a Discover and Bipandra shooting which the above quote negates.
- WookieeGunner
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Dylan Gould wrote:H1ghlander wrote:I disagree, for this reason. "The cancellation of the Camo State is applied to the whole declared Order" (pg 71 core rulebook). This would allow the delayed Shoot ARO to be resolved, as the Zero would have finished it's order not in the camo state, and travelled through LOF to the Nisse during said order.
The section you are referencing, if you read the start of it, refers to actions the camo marker takes that cancel the marker state...an enemy Discover is not in the list.
Additionally, from the preceeding page (emphasis mine):However, if you choose to delay your ARO, you may only declare it if the Camouflage Marker revealed itself with its second Short Skill. If the Marker does not reveal itself, the reactive trooper loses his right to ARO.
Regarding the cancellation of the camo state, it is listed under 'Cancellation', and it also lists 'The Camouflaged trooper is successfully discovered' as well - all circumstances of a trooper losing its camo state is listed under that heading, not just the actions the trooper takes.
I had missed the point regarding the camo trooper revealing itself vs being discovered regarding AROs, so thanks for setting me straight on that.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - Clan Motto
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H1ghlander - Posts: 176
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I admit you lost me there, H1ghlander. Does it mean I was right, or my opponent was ?
Well, I stand by my opinion: your opponent was wrong.
He was effectively delaying a Shoot ARO. When the target became discovered, it was at the end of the Order, therefore the delayed ARO was wasted.
He was effectively delaying a Shoot ARO. When the target became discovered, it was at the end of the Order, therefore the delayed ARO was wasted.
They say there will be Heaven and the Fount of Kausar,
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
Thank you.
Could you please point me to the rule, which says that the resolution of the AROs takes place when my order is finished ? My opponent, who's also my good friend states, that Discovery took place after the first part of the order (move), so when I declare the second part Zero is no longer a marker but a model and can be shot at when it moves. So, according to him, rule that says that I must perform an action that causes me to lose camo no longer applies.
Could you please point me to the rule, which says that the resolution of the AROs takes place when my order is finished ? My opponent, who's also my good friend states, that Discovery took place after the first part of the order (move), so when I declare the second part Zero is no longer a marker but a model and can be shot at when it moves. So, according to him, rule that says that I must perform an action that causes me to lose camo no longer applies.
- WookieeGunner
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