Corgie Link Team Needs Halp

[WiseKensai]

Hello!

I've been lurking for awhile now both here and on the "official" forums (whatever happened with that, anyway? Is there a move happening or not?). I've got 10 or so games under my belt now with my Corgies, with mixed results. What follows is a long and rambling post. You have been warned.

I'm reasonably certain that the weakest facets of my play are deployment and link teams. I'm having great fun with Corregidor's AD troops and other toys, though. As advertised, Tomcats are amazing swiss army knives. I have done so many dirty things with them (the mine version is especially dastardly. Once scared a Tohaa opponent into dropping ZV smoke at his feet and then deployed mines in the smoke bubble after dropping in).

I was hoping I could pick the collective brain of the Nomad community for tips and tricks as to how I can use my link team better, and perhaps more importantly, deploy them better. My first couple games I turtled Alguacil link teams (usually 3 combi, 1 LGL, 1 HMG) in a building and usually AROed my opponents into oblivion (they're new too). As we learn and grow as players, this strategy has become less effective, due to a combination of better terrain setup and better tactics by my opponents. We're a relatively new (small) infinity community, so my one regular opponent plays Caldeonians. Occasionally I'll get a game in versus Combined, Tohaa, or Military Orders. Since many of the players only have a starter box and a few blisters, we play YAMS at 150 or 200 pts.

As an illustrative example, my most recent game was particularly frustrating. Our lists below:

Nomads - Corregidor Jurisdictional Command | 10 models
________________________________________________________

Intruder Lieutenant (36|0)
Lupe Balboa (23|0)
Alguacil Grenadier (15|1)
Alguacil FO/Repeater (14|0)
Alguacil HMG (19|1)
Alguacil Hacker (22|0.5)
Reaktion Zond (28|1)
Yuan Yuan AP CCW (11|0)
Yuan Yuan AP CCW (11|0)
Tomcat E/Mitter (19|0)
________________________________________________________

198/200 points | 3.5/4 swc
open with Aleph Toolbox : http://goo.gl/quzq61

Ariadna - Caledonian Highlander Army | 10 models
________________________________________________________

Volunteer Lieutenant (8|0)
Isobel McGregor AP (23|0.5)
Volunteer LGL (11|0.5)
Volunteer Rifle (8|0)
Volunteer Chain (6|0)
Uxìa SupInf (25|0)
S.A.S. CRAP (23|0)
Scot 2nd Smg (23|0)
Caledonian Mormaer HMG (48|2)
Cateran Sniper (25|0.5)
________________________________________________________

200/200 points | 3.5/4 swc
open with Aleph Toolbox : http://goo.gl/QeJurr

I'm not sure who his LT was, but that particular detail wasn't relevant this game.

Nomad YAMS objectives: Mapping, Infiltrate, Flag Kill, Capture the Flag
Ariadna YAMS objectives: Intimidation, Hold, Decimate, Prize Fighter

Unfortunately I don't have pictures of the battlefield, which will make this endeavor more difficult, but I'll do my best to explain what happened.

I lost the WIP roll, he chose to go first, I chose deployment sides and for him to deploy first (I chose the side I was already standing at because it was a friendly game and it was getting late).

He deployed his Cateran in a commanding position next to his flag on my right flank and his Scots SMG guy on my left flank. His link team was spread out the max 16" behind some cover. He kept his Moramer in reserve. While the Cateran, the flag, and the SMG guy were all camo tokens, it wasn't hard to figure out what was what (I didn't know it was an SMG guy but I knew it was some sort of non-infiltrating guy and not a flag).

Having played him many times, I expected Uxia to infiltrate and wreck my order pool early on. Due to the terrain, I deployed my link team out of LoF of the Cateran, but this put them in a line. Obviously, in hindsight this was a huge mistake. I had two other options:

1) deploy them prone and spread out a bit, probably the right option
2) turtle them in a building in the rear of my deployment zone

I'm not entirely sure why I didn't go with Option 1. In retrospect I think I should have, but his link team could easily have maneuvered in his first turn to pin them down behind their cover, unable to move, and due to them being prone I wouldn't have been able to respond to fend them off. Option 2 meant they didn't project much threat onto the center of the board, or adequately cover the civvie/crate for YAMS.

I deployed my flag on the right flank in some cover, and mirrored that with my Intruder LT on the left. I held my Reaktion Zond in reserve. He reinforced his left flank with his Moramer, and I mirrored him on my left flank with my remote. Then he infiltrated. The SAS CRAP was in a building in the center of the board, and Uxia right in my face, only a few inches from my link team.

He chose to go first, and maneuvered about with Uxia, trying to get a shot off. It was a series of errors on my part. My Zond could see her, but it looked like he would get a shot off so I wanted to shoot Uxia instead of discovering. By the time she was in LoF of my link team it was too late. I got extremely lucky and my FtF dodge versus his shotgun at < 8" canceled his successes (we're playing with N3 ranges). In the ensuing firefight Uxia got turned to paste, but not before wiping out my HMG and hacker. I had dodged to move guys out of template formation, which exposed one to his Cateran. One headshot later and I was left with just Lupe and my FO Alguacil.

Needless to say this was backbreaking. Losing 3 out of my 10 orders, with 3 AD troops off-board was awful. My turn came around, I did some Yuan Yuan shenanigans, pasted his Cateran with chain rifles (sweet sweet revenge), but he made two ARM saves for his flag. That was my entire turn, due to my low order count. His Moramer wiped the Yuan Yuans off the map (spending a good chunk of his order pool to do so), and then he shuffled his Scots SMG and link team forward.

Bottom of turn 2, I pinned down his Scots SMG with some mines from my Zond, and then got greedy and moved my Zond onto the opposite side of the building of his link team and dropped a mine. Then I was out of orders.

On his turn, his CRAP trooper took it out, taking the mine to the face and surviving. He then pasted my FO Alguacil, putting me into retreat, meaning the dropship carrying my Tomcat decided to RTB and so we shook hands and that was that.

I definitely could've done a better job of deployment and AROs to save my link team versus Uxia, but I'm having a lot of trouble against camo infiltrators. The Cateran forces me to deploy out of LoF or I die to him shooting at me in bad range bands for my combi rifles or even my heavier weapons (Mimetism + Cover + Combat Camo really hurts). This frees up the camo infiltrators to shuffle around cleverly and template my link team, throw grenades, or generally just be a nuisance. I also didn't use my intruder at all, or his MSV2. It's just so scary in N2 to use your LT, and I was already so low on orders.

My opponent has a ridiculous amount of experience playing miniatures games and graciously offered some advice. He thinks Option 1 for deploying my link team was likely the best (he also suggested that my DZ terrain density was a little low, but I still think I should've been able to work it out. It's a poor workman who blames his tools, IMHO). My opponent commented that I could do a better job of protecting my link team with my other forces, but I'm not sure what's better than a Total Reaktion HMG for a neighbor. He also has a great deal of success with his link team and I'm having a bear of a time getting much mileage out of them at all.

In my limited experience, the whole point is the order efficiency for moving them, in addition to the B+1, SSL2, and +3BS/WIP for a 5-man team. Playing against Ariadna, I really want that +3 BS to handle the camo, but that means it's harder to deny him LoF for AROs when I'm moving my guys around. A 5-man team also means that templates are juicier. Yes, I can spread them out and scatter them, but usually one of them will be left out in the cold and and open to someone's LoF.

So, in summary (and with apologies for a long and rambling first post), I am at a loss for how to effectively use link teams in Corregidor. I can never seem to get them to survive long enough to take advantage of their toolboxy-ness, or I turtle them hard and my opponent just avoids them.

Should I deploy them extremely conservatively, and force my opponent to spend a large chunk of his order pool rooting them out, or possibly just spend his order pool on winning YAMS? Do I deploy them more aggressively, and hope I roll well? Do I give up on the Alguacil link, and move to Wildcat spam? I feel like Lupe should be good and gives me an opportunity to abuse smoke...

I have considered using Morans to combat his camo infiltrators, but I'm clearly making avoidable mistakes. Ugh. I'll learn eventually, I suppose. Any advice is most welcome.

[Errhile]

Algulacile Link is fine, especially at lower point values - Wildcats are twice as expensive.

Placement is the key. Also, if you plan to ARO the bejeeus out of your opponent, I'd consider the MultiSniper Rifle as an alternative to the HMG. It is way more scary in ARO.

Keep in mind, though, that ARO'ing is not a method ou could rely on to win you a game - you need some offensive elements to go there and achieve some objectives / down some targets.

If I were to critique your list, I'd ask why you had 3 models in AD - that's a lot! 3 Orders off-board is oretty limiting.
Also, keep in mind that Yuan Yuan, as Mercenaries, are not generally considered to be a legal addition to the Corregidor list of course, if you've agreed with your opponent upon this, no problem here).
I'd also try a Lunokhod instead of the Reaktion Zond - while TR HMG is a powerful tool, it is difficult to be used offensively, and I'd doubt it would last long against Combat Camo troops.

[Scorch]

It took me halfway through the original post to understand it wasn't going about dogs.

[WiseKensai]

Thanks for the reply/advice, Errhile. I've tried the Aggie w/ MSR in previous games and found her to be okay. Usually my link team just gets eaten by some sort of camo infiltrator, so it's been difficult to justify the 1.5 SWC, especially when they start so close and negate the MSR's range advantage. If she survives to turn 2, she usually has locked down a section of the board simply by scaring my opponents into not going there. I'll give her some more board time over my next few games, see what shakes out. Thanks for the nudge to use her.

The Caledonian player came to the same assessment as you did, i.e. stop turtling my link team 'cause just AROing won't win me games. In the past, AD troops have been my (bad) answer to that. My turtled link team parks somewhere, generates an order pool, and my AD troops do all the useful stuff. You're certainly right though, that last game was, if anything, a strong argument against having so many troops off board. I've heard several rules of thumb as to how many AD troops to include in a 10-man combat group, but the general consensus, to my understanding, has been a max of 3? Perhaps I will take 0-1 AD troops over the next few games to force me to stop using them as a crutch.

This game was my first real attempt to use my link team as a mobile force on my active turn. Sadly, bad deployment got them killed before my active turn, but I was totally planning to pop smoke with Lupe and run them around. Next time, I suppose. With regards to mercenaries, our play group has been allowing whatever Aleph Toolbox allows. The mercs seem to cover some holes that CJC has, in particular the lack of smoke and ODD (I've also been fielding Miranda Ashcroft). Mercs aren't allowed in ITS/Paradiso, to my understanding?

So, if I'm taking less AD troops but still needing to project force/take objectives/etc., what do I use do do that? Obviously my link team if it survives, but I feel like the much-lauded Intruders are too slow, and Wildcats somewhat clunky out of a link. Do I shift my strategy to make the link team the workhorse with other pieces like a MSR Intruder and Reaktion zonds to support in ARO? Was your suggestion to take a Lunokhod imply that it fills the workhorse role with all the shotgunny-goodness and Koala threat projection? I had a great game doing the HMG Intruder/Lupe smoke trick, but that won't work again as effectively against that opponent.

It took me halfway through the original post to understand it wasn't going about dogs.

Hah! Sorry 'bout that. Confusing/lengthy post is confusing/lengthy.

[Errhile]

Mercs, IIRC, are not allowed in ITS for Sectorial armies (save for - in case of Corregidor - Valerya Gromoz, Senor Massacre and McMurrough, who are listed as a CJC legit troops). I don't remeber how it looks like in Paradiso.

Now - turtling your Link Team, especially a cheap Light Infantry Link Team, is an old and honoured tactic. Nothing wrong about it, though you might want to keep a Crazy Koala or two around in case of some Camo trying to jump you.
Using them as a part of your main offensive force is fine, too - just a matter of gearing them up appropriately... and, for crying out loud, keeping them in cover and optimum distance to target. But this applies to everything in Infinity.
As I said - have your Link geared up for the role you want them to fulfill. Being flexible here is a great thing, but often difficult / too expensive to get.

As for AD troops - having 7 Orders on board might seem acceptable, but once you start taking loses, it will get down to really few orders every turn. Having 4-5, you can't do much...
Therefore, it is usually said that you need 8 Regular Orders on the table at the beginning of the game minimum. Which limits us to no more than 2 Irregular / AD / TO Hidden Deployment models per combat group. Some cases, for example McMurrough (who is both Irregular and Impetous) defend thmeselves well against that theory, but you actually want him to get forward and wreak some havoc.

Also, I'd suggest enlisting some medical specialist (Daktari, Tomcat Doc, or at least an Algulacile Paramedic) to help you recover from at least some of the losses.

[WiseKensai]

Quick update! Just had a pickup game against our local Tohaa player. Lists are below. The Tohaa player took 3 link teams, they're grouped in order.

Nomads - Corregidor Jurisdictional Command | 10 models
________________________________________________________

Wildcat Lieutenant (19|0)
Wildcat LFT (19|0)
Wildcat BS (19|0)
Lupe Balboa (23|0)
Alguacil Hacker (22|0.5)
Alguacil Grenadier (15|1)
Alguacil FO/Repeater (14|0)
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
Reaktion Zond (28|1)
Hellcat HMG (29|1.5)
________________________________________________________

198/200 points | 4/4 swc
open with Aleph Toolbox : http://goo.gl/cXbVNZ

Tohaa | 10 models
________________________________________________________

Kamael Sniper (18|1)
Kamael Sniper (18|1)
Makaul Flamer (15|0)
Gao-Rael Sniper (37|1)
Sakiel SWG (20|0)
Makaul Flamer (15|0)
Kamael Lieutenant (12|0)
Makaul Swarm (18|0)
Makaul Swarm (18|0)
Clipsos Sniper (29|1)
________________________________________________________

200/200 points | 4/4 swc
open with Aleph Toolbox : http://goo.gl/JO118J

Nomad YAMS Objectives: Mapping, Triangulation, Clear the Area, Advance
Tohaa YAMS Objectives: Infiltrate, Assess, Flag Kill, Capture the Flag

I'll keep it brief. Deployed my Alguaciles on my left flank, my Wildcats (in link) on the right, held the Zond in reserve. Tohaa player took the second story of the building on my right flank with his double sniper link team, turtled his LT link team in a center building, and left his Gao-Rael sniper team right up against the edge of his DZ on my left, with some of them in the open. He held his Gao-Rael in reserve, but it ended up joining the rest of his link team on my left flank.
I deployed my Zond on the left, and he hidden-deployed/infiltrated his Clipsos.

Long story short, I went first, ran my Zond up the left side with Lupe smoke cover, climbed a building, HMG'ed a Makaul to death and got his Gao-Rael prone. Advanced my Wildcat link, planted a D-charge to get through a building on my next turn, used my LT order to link my Alguaciles and advanced them under more Lupe smoke, then passed turn.

In trying to get at me he bunched his LT link team with the remnants of his Gao-Rael team, but my Zond kept him in check until he took it out with his TO sniper. He panicked a bit, I think, and displaced his Kamael snipers trying to murder my Wildcats. He actually ran his Makaul with viral CCW all the way up under ZV smoke to get at them. Fortunately my LT made his BTS save. PHEW. This let me drop my HMG Hellcat and hammer his order pool some more.

From there I had enough momentum and bodies to throw at the problem and I finished with 4 YAMS objectives to his 0. I wasn't convinced that he had failed Assess, but he claimed that due to my smoke he hadn't seen my Alguacil team, really.

Takeaways for me:

• 1 AD troop, especially if it's a HMG hellcat, was "good enough," at least in this instance.
• Going first with two link teams is HUGE.
• I think I deployed my link teams better, but it's hard to say as I knew I was going first.

My opponent and I did a post-mortem afterwards, and we came to the conclusion that he shouldn't have moved his Kamael sniper link team, and certainly shouldn't have put his Gao-Rael team in the open (it was a bit odd for me to be on the other side of that situation, usually it's my link team getting murdered).

Does anyone have an opinion/thoughts on moving a sniper-heavy link team around? For CJC, at least, it seems like having an Alguacil with MSR being up-front and aggressive is a waste of points.

I found the "two" link teams useful, but not so useful as to be overpowered. It was a good way to get the Wildcats up the board quick, but once the Alguaciles got into combat it was really difficult to justify reforming the Wildcat link. They ended up just being a juicy target and a source of three orders. Had things gone poorly for my Alguaciles, though, I imagine having a backup link team would be useful. Is this a terrible idea? Bringing two link teams? Should I have invested in more Alguaciles for a backup Algaucil link team? I've also been toying with a 5-man Wildcat list with a 3-man Alguacil backup team in there...

T'was nice finally seeing my CJC link team doing something useful across the center line of the board. Now to try it against Caledonians...

[rahxephon]

I dont tend to go for double link teams, especially at 200 points you wont be able to outfit both of them well and typically units that link are very vulnerable when they are not. An exception to this would be HI, you could conceivably run a 3 link Mobile brigada group then drop them in cover and link an alguacil overwatch team at the end. HI in cover are always a pain to try and move. Either way I'm not a big subscriber to defensive links. Typically I take a wildcat one with a HRL, engineers, N2 + 2 LFTs which is for ITS scenarios. Often I dont even use them on the first turn, just leave them somewhere out of LOS so on turn 2 I can bring an unscratched link to bear. But once again its a bit different in ITS scenarios to YAMS with what you want to be spending orders on.

With regards to how the game went, I cant say too much. I've never versed a tohaa army that's just trying to rely on snipers. It looks to me like he was intending to dominate through AROs which doesn't work too well, sure take 1 or 2 snipers, but 4 seems like a bit of a case of diminishing returns. I'd suggest some chaksa auxiliaries. The HMG, neurocinetics one is tohaas TR REM equivalent and even the baggage sensor guy is pretty good. Functions as a cheer leader but is far better defensively with the heavy flamethrower and can actually be quite useful for markers with sensor. Plus situationally, baggage helps with retreat. Also Gao-Tarsos are very strong, having the second wound on a drop troop stops those freak AROs and even means you can drop them in a hotspot if you have to. The whole flamer thing is overrated as if any other drop troop failed a save against a flamer they'd be dead to. Its only on the gorgos it becomes problematic.

And for you army, I dont see much point in the Wildcat trio. If you're going to take a hacker, I'd grab a lunokhod as well as the reaktion. You're paying 12pts for the hacker and the lunokhod is good regardless, so if its availble, go for it. An example to try could be:
JURISDICTIONAL COMMAND OF CORREGIDOR
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10 0 0

LUPE BALBOA Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Panzerfaust, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (23)
ALGUACIL Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
ALGUACIL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10)
ALGUACIL HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 19)
DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (14)
REAKTION ZOND HMG, Antipersonnel Mines / Electric Pulse. (1 | 28)
LUNOKHOD Boarding Shotgun, Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (29)
HELLCAT Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (20)
TOMCAT Engineer Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (22)
ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (3)

3.5 SWC | 200 Points

Open with Army 4

Have the zondbot sitting by the reaktion linked to the engineer. So when it goes down you just bring the tomcat in and fix it. The downside is that having a disconnected servant kinda tells them you have a drop troop its connected to, but they'd guess you have one anyway after delpoying 8 guys.

The final thing I'll add is that sometimes YAMs can give you objectives that are very easy, or very hard to achieve. Its the same with classifieds in ITS, but at least in ITS those are just an aside to the primary objective, rather than the primary objective themselves. In this case mapping and triangulation are pretty easy if you have a drop troop. But flag kill and capture the flag are difficult even with a drop troop, and without one you pretty much have to dominate the opponent to get there. When you can place the flag anywhere in your DZ, its not hard to make it incredibly difficult to get to, whereas trying to stop someone from doing a WIP check anywhere in your DZ is hard to prevent.

[Arachas]

Agreed with the advice above. Let me reply to two general things you've said:

No, there won't be a move from the official forums to here. CB decided to keep their forums up, although the performance of said forums has remained subpar, sadly. Many people frequent both forums.

Yes, deployment and link teams are hard at first. I think you've named the two main things our group has struggled with over the course of the last year. Keep playing and you WILL see change: you'll start seeing how to do deploy and how not to. You'll learn to keep your links alive and how to destroy your opponent's link.

That being said, I heartily recommend trying your hand at Vanilla. I feel link teams are an advanced rule (though not so in terms of power, just different) and as such you'll get a better understanding of the game if you don't include them from the start. Most of our group has moved from sectorials to Vanilla by now and its deepened our experience of the game, for sure. Try it.

@Errhile, why is a MSR better in ARO? Because it's DA?

[McNamara]

@Errhile, why is a MSR better in ARO? Because it's DA?

Sure its because of DA! At Burst 2 thats almost as good as a HMG in offense!

The ML is of course a really good ARO weapon too, especially against Link Teams. You save some SWC, but pay some points extra, which definitely hurts much more at lower point games.

[Errhile]

Yup, because it is DA.
Also, the range is slightly longer, though that rarely makes a difference.
Still, 2x DAM 15 DA of a MSR vs 2x DAM 15 from a HMG...

ML is good, true, but it is also damn expensive... and I've seen a couple of situations when a ML was put useless by the oponent placing himself close enough to a friendly model (usually unconscious) to become an illegal target.
No such risk with MSR.

Still, under 2ed rules I consider MSR to be overpriced, compared to both HMG and ordinary sniper rifle, especially on basic troops like Algulaciles (playing QK as well as CJC I think I can compare these things). How that will go in 3ed, I can only but wonder at this point.

[WiseKensai]

Thanks all, for your replies and advice. I keep hearing that the Infinity community is awesome on blogs, podcasts, etc. Nice to find out that they were right!

That being said, I heartily recommend trying your hand at Vanilla. I feel link teams are an advanced rule (though not so in terms of power, just different) and as such you'll get a better understanding of the game if you don't include them from the start. Most of our group has moved from sectorials to Vanilla by now and its deepened our experience of the game, for sure. Try it.

I've been thinking about trying my hand at vanilla Nomads for awhile now. I even bought an extra Zero for that purpose (plus the E-Mauler sculpt looks pretty fun to paint). In list-building, it seems that a whole new set of tools become available. Minelayer Zeros really caught my eye, probably because of those troublesome SAS troopers!

I'm curious though, Arachas, as to why you would make the above statement. Is it because vanilla has more tools, rules interactions, and flexibility? Is it because it forces you to not rely on the crutch of the link-team bonuses and start paying more attention to negating the opponent's bonuses while applying your own (range bands, MSVs, etc)? Or is it just one of those wise man on the mountain "try it and you'll see" sort of things?

How that will go in 3ed, I can only but wonder at this point.

As to how the MSR operates in N3, I can share my experiences with that. While my play group doesn't have all the N3 rules yet, we've been slowly working them in as they get released. Since the majority of us can only field 150-200 pts to begin with and we're still learning, we've avoided ITS/Paradiso so far and thus have some more flexibility to fudge the rules.

We've been playing with the N3 Range Bands as released on Beasts of War and in the GenCon feed from Team Convenant, linked here for your convenience and for those who haven't seen it yet:

• Beasts of War -- Infinity N3 Weapon Ranges
• Team Covenant -- Infinity GenCon Coverage

Of course this is mostly speculation as we don't know what other surprises N3 will bring, but we can at least isolate the changes brought on by the new range bands. So far, what the new range bands have done for our games is to encourage us to deploy snipers far back into our DZ. For us, at least, this has primarily been due to the HMG's +3 going to -3 at 32". In our early learning games my play group has all lost snipers to HMG fire, and this at least has forced the HMGs to shuffle up the board some to get a better range band, possibly dying to an ARO from said snipers.

We've also found that pushing snipers forward can be very dangerous, be that running them up from the DZ or infiltrating. Admittedly this is in part due to light shotgun-toting Caledonian Volunteers , with their huge buff at < 8". These reasons were in part why I've been waffling on the MSR Algaucile as of late, especially if I want a mobile team. I imagine she's not very viable in vanilla due to the loss of the B2 in ARO from being in a link team?

I've also tried bringing the Intruder MSR, before and after we started playing with the N3 bands. I can definitely say that X-Visor is pretty useless post-N3 bands (and somewhat useless in N2 bands), but I have heard various rumors that CB will likely change the profile. Rumor-mongering aside, I find he takes at least 1-2 models with him before he goes. I'm curious to know if other people are getting the same sort of value out of him, and if they dedicate a ZondBot synced to a Daktari to him, much like rahxephon's (fun anime, btw) suggestion with the engineer and the TR Zond.

[Oreet]

This is my favorite Corgi link team:

[Errhile]

I meant the cost of a MSR, especially, an Algulacile MSR, in N3. At 24pts and 1,5 SWC it isn't really that competitive against Algulacile HMG (19pts, 1 SWC).

[McNamara]

Thats what I wanted to add also. The MSR is really expensive in N2, so even with better range bands its not that hot of a choice either.

Snipers in CJC have it really difficult. Besides the Alugacil in a Link Team, they aren't that hot. Hellcat, is pretty useless, and the Intruder is just way too expensive. And thats it.
SpecOps are rather good choice, if they are allowed, since this saves you quite a lot of points and SWC, and with the Link Bonus can be rather scary.

Snipers in vanilla aren't exactly no brainers either though. The Sin-Eater's Neurogenetics, work much better with higher Burst weapons. The Zero and the Spektr pay for infiltration (but TO Snipers always are pretty nasty). The Moira is pretty expensive too (If she gets cheaper though, this will be a rather interesting choice though thanks too ODD). And last the new Grenzer isn't that hot, but I guess Mimetism and MSV1 do actually work pretty similar to ODD, when you think about it. So maybe some people will like him.
I think thats pretty much it. Oh I forgot Moderators and Securitate, the first are pretty similar too Alguacil and the later we have to wait and see.

All in all Nomads aren't the the Sniper faction I guess. Other factions have much more dedicated Snipers available.

[WiseKensai]

Well, as a non-ITS solution, CJC can take the Cateran sniper for reasonably cheap. He's also quite effective, in spite of being irregular. I've been toying with the idea in several lists, but it sounds like my play group is a little unusual in allowing these sorts of things.

In general, I've been somewhat underwhelmed by Intruders. The HMG isn't super great in ARO, and it's really order intensive in the active turn to shuffle him around, especially if Lupe is chucking smoke for him. It is, of course, very effective versus lists without MSV2. The sniper is overcosted, and the other options aren't great. I'm never sure if I'm supposed to be using them in the active turn or just letting them ARO targets of opportunity. The Intruder LT is great at defending my DZ, but I'm always reluctant to put him in harm's way by pushing him up the board, even in camo.

In my limited experience, the TR zonds have been the most cost-effective ARO units for my CJC, followed by a turtled link team. I just wish the TR zonds weren't so squishy, but I guess that's what zondbots/engineers are for. I'm still zeroing on the best way to deny my opponent board control and maneuverability while retaining those two things myself. It's a little frustrating that it seems like vanilla Nomads can do those things better than CJC. At my current skill level it feels like CJC is meant to be wielded like a scalpel. Apply pressure exactly where you want it with Intruders, Tomcats, and Hellcats and then finish the job with a link team.

I've been meaning to build out some spaceship corridor terrain so that Zero-G actually matters, and to make things feel a little more claustrophobic. That will probably make Wildcat links shine, especially due to the flexibility they get from their D-charges.

Speaking of which, I haven't been able to find a good ruleset for how D-charges interact with terrain. My playgroup has been treating them as if they blow a 2" diameter hole, centered on where the D-charge was placed. This allows pretty much anything to get through without a problem, and also allows you to blow holes in the roof of tall buildings and send models tumbling to their deaths. Is there some generally agreed-upon house rule for this that I'm unaware of?

[McNamara]

In my limited experience, the TR zonds have been the most cost-effective ARO units for my CJC, followed by a turtled link team. I just wish the TR zonds weren't so squishy, but I guess that's what zondbots/engineers are for. I'm still zeroing on the best way to deny my opponent board control and maneuverability while retaining those two things myself. It's a little frustrating that it seems like vanilla Nomads can do those things better than CJC. At my current skill level it feels like CJC is meant to be wielded like a scalpel. Apply pressure exactly where you want it with Intruders, Tomcats, and Hellcats and then finish the job with a link team.

And thats where for example vanilla comes in, since you just can take a Sin Eater there, which are tougher than TR Remotes.

[Arachas]

Thanks all, for your replies and advice. I keep hearing that the Infinity community is awesome on blogs, podcasts, etc. Nice to find out that they were right!

That being said, I heartily recommend trying your hand at Vanilla. I feel link teams are an advanced rule (though not so in terms of power, just different) and as such you'll get a better understanding of the game if you don't include them from the start. Most of our group has moved from sectorials to Vanilla by now and its deepened our experience of the game, for sure. Try it.

I've been thinking about trying my hand at vanilla Nomads for awhile now. I even bought an extra Zero for that purpose (plus the E-Mauler sculpt looks pretty fun to paint). In list-building, it seems that a whole new set of tools become available. Minelayer Zeros really caught my eye, probably because of those troublesome SAS troopers!

I'm curious though, Arachas, as to why you would make the above statement. Is it because vanilla has more tools, rules interactions, and flexibility? Is it because it forces you to not rely on the crutch of the link-team bonuses and start paying more attention to negating the opponent's bonuses while applying your own (range bands, MSVs, etc)? Or is it just one of those wise man on the mountain "try it and you'll see" sort of things?

There's a couple of things we noticed when we started playing Vanilla. One, if you all play sectorials, indeed you will take a link most of the time. While certainly powerful, it does limit you in terms of flexibility. You have to keep the models close together, you have to protect it...

It also means you'll focus more on link-busting tactics. To give you an example, my Hassassin opponent figured out how to place his Fiday Impersonators in such a way he'd keep an entire link team busy for a turn. When we switched to Vanilla, he had to rethink his approach (and we started ignoring the Fiday, since they could no longer threaten such a critical component of your list).

I've found that actually having 10+ truly individual models in the field make me think more "in the spirit" of the game. Infinity is tactical and each model is in a unique situation, with a unique goal and a unique way of achieving that goal. You use each model in coordination with others to reach set goals.

I don't know how to explain this better, but somehow I found the bigger selection of tools very enlightening during gameplay. You can use models together you otherwise can't, etc.

I'll go back to Corregidor soon, as I've been painting up my new Alguaciles... but Vanilla has definitely widened my scope of the game.

[WiseKensai]

Got a report from the front! Played three games against Tohaa today, the first two as CJC the last as vanilla Nomads. Tohaa player was trying out his TAG for the first time, used the same list 3 times. I'm reconstructing his list from memory, but it's pretty close if it's wrong. That 7/0.5 hole in my CJC list isn't me mis-remembering, it's me sucking at list building before my coffee kicks in. Lists below:

Tohaa | 10 models
________________________________________________________

Gorgos (87|2)
Periferical
Kamael Lieutenant (12|0)
Kamael Combi (12|0)
Kamael Combi (12|0)
Kamael Combi (12|0)
Makaul Flamer (15|0)
Makaul Flamer (15|0)
Makaul Flamer (15|0)
Makaul Flamer (15|0)
Diplomatic Delegate Specialist (5|0)
________________________________________________________

200/200 points | 2/4 swc
open with Aleph Toolbox : http://goo.gl/1Jo6kw

Nomads - Corregidor Jurisdictional Command | 10 models
________________________________________________________

Lupe Balboa (23|0)
Alguacil Lieutenant (10|1)
Alguacil FO/Repeater (14|0)
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
Reaktion Zond (28|1)
Alguacil Hacker (22|0.5)
Moran Combi (21|0.5)
Hellcat Adhesive (25|0.5)
Carlota Kowalsky (30|0)
________________________________________________________

193/200 points | 3.5/4 swc
open with Aleph Toolbox : http://goo.gl/472RVO

Nomads | 10 models
________________________________________________________

Alguacil Lieutenant (10|1)
Alguacil FO/Repeater (14|0)
Alguacil FO/Repeater (14|0)
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
Lupe Balboa (23|0)
Intruder HMG (44|1.5)
Hellcat Adhesive (25|0.5)
Tomcat Engineer (22|0)
Zero Minelayer (19|0.5)
Zero Minelayer (19|0.5)
________________________________________________________

200/200 points | 4/4 swc
open with Aleph Toolbox : http://goo.gl/KBlgNS

Game 1:

Faced down my first TAG. Long story short, they are RUDE. ADHL Hellcat couldn't glue it on my active turn. ADHL hit, the tag just passed a bunch of PH -6 rolls. In one order on my reactive turn, it tanked a Crazy Koala, Lupe got spitfired in the face trying to ARO it with Panzerfausts, and the rest of my link team and the Moran combi-rifled it, barely scratching the paint. It didn't even care that I successfully flash-pulsed it. It just walked into close combat and murdered my link team, finally going down to a stupidly lucky pistol shot. All this while my hacker is typing furiously on her hacking device through the repeater my FO dropped on my active turn. So many failed hacking rolls. Sigh. I had Prize Fighter so I had to mop up the inactive symbiont armor guy while in loss of LT. It was gross.

Needless to say I lost. I think I deployed my link team well, but I probably should've run up and shot the TAG with a Panzerfaust instead of trying to take it on in ARO, or with hacking. Throwing the repeaters was a wasted order it seemed. BTS -9 seems pretty unhackable, at least for a lone Alguacil. Also, using coordinated orders to have both Carlota and the Hellcat try to ADHL the tag would probably have worked. I ended up dropping Carlota on the other side of the board. Arguably she was needed there to take out more of his order pool, but the real issue was that Periferical thing is pretty great at locking down the board edges against AD2.

Game 2:

Kept the same CJC list, went first. Tried to kill the TAG with the TR zond's HMG. Lucky combi-rifle shot wiped out the TR zond on my first order. Stopped messing around, dropped in the Hellcat and chipped away 3 of his orders. Killed his "obvious LT is obvious" out of convenience, turned out it wasn't his LT. Carlota and the Moran suppressed a guy prone by weight of fire, and the Moran ran up with his Koalas. Opponent fed a Makaul to the Koalas and proceeded to Zero V smoke his way into CC with Carlota and ganked her. Everything collapsed after that.

My mistake in this game was deploying Lupe and her team as a "hard counter" to the TAG on the same side as the TAG. In the end his TAG ended up being a very expensive deterrent to me moving my link team and his Makauls did all the work. I put the hacker in with the link team, assuming that she would get +3 WIP for hacking from the link team, but never actually got the chance to hack anything.

Game 3:

Most of our group has moved from sectorials to Vanilla by now and its deepened our experience of the game, for sure. Try it.

Tried vanilla Nomads for the first time! As advertised, a very enlightening experience. The Zeros were great, they locked down a big chunk of the board and discouraged him from moving his infantry up. The TAG didn't advance too far, it just parked in some cover and threatened AROs.

Tomcat engineer was the MVP. She planted a Telemetry beacon for YAMS and then D-charged her way through a wall to get a LFT template on 4 guys. Hellcat mopped up the survivors and protected the beacon. My biggest mistake this game was my LT deployment and putting my Intruder in a dumb spot. He ran a Makaul, Makaul, Kamael team up under smoke, ganked my LT and flamethrowered my stupidly placed Intruder. I was hoping to do the Lupe smoke + Intruder HMG trick, but all I got was a dead LT, a dead Intruder, and traded Lupe to take out that team. Fortunately my LT died on my turn using her LT order to CC the Makaul who had failed to kill her with my opponents last order.

Overall, Game 3 was a really close game. I managed to only lose 3 to 4 in YAMS objectives, and it felt much better than the first two games. I'm sorta starting to see the pros/cons of link teams better. I'm not forced to put them all together, nor am I tempted (or allowed) to keep them in a link. Everyone can wander around and get shot on their own (while hopefully killing someone in the process).

Not having to deploy in 8" of someone is pretty great, as it lets me use models to protect each other a little more effectively, as well as cover more avenues of approach. It also means that one model can't lock down my whole link team by threatening a nasty ARO, like in Game 2 (frig' fraggin' flippin' Flammenspeer). I did miss the efficient movement, especially since I had Clear the Area, Advance, and Triangulation as objectives, but those were the ones I actually managed to achieve (I lost Ambush, as I ambushed Blockade and didn't have a guy in his DZ). Again, Zeros are awesome.

I'm reasonably sure that had I done a better job of protecting my backfield (still annoyed at that Intruder placement), the game would've gone better. I'm also pretty convinced that the way to deal with a TAG is to wipe its order pool as opposed to trying and crack the TAG directly. Having 4 effective wounds at ARM 6 and BTS 9 makes it just stupidly hard to kill. ADHL's not great either, due to the high PH. If anyone has any other ideas I'm all ears.

Zero V smoke is also a huge pain, as it lets Tohaa get right in your face with those nasty Viral CCWs and heavy flamethrowers. Ahh, that must be why everyone has been suggesting I take Lunokhods. I assume it's for the Crazy Koalas? One interesting side-effect of YAMS has been that the civvie/crate have the 8" bubble of "do not infiltrate here," so even minelaying Zeros can't always lock down the board edges to prevent a Zero V smoke train.

Lots of lessons learned. I'm looking forward to trying out more vanilla Nomads lists. If anyone has any suggestions on how to better deal with TAGs, wipe an order pool, or deal with fast, smoke-throwing link teams in CJC or vanilla Nomads, I'm game to try anything.

[Arachas]

The way to deal with TAGs at 200 points is simply agreeing with your opponent not to play them! They are a very tough nut to crack at low point levels, on the OP side really (though that is also largely due to the fact that low points usually = inexperienced players, i.e. you need the right tools for the job AND you need enough insight to be able to fight the TAG).

So play the same guy soon, ask him not to bring a TAG. Different game, I assure you.

Thanks for the write up, glad you enjoyed Vanilla. No pics, though?

[WiseKensai]

So play the same guy soon, ask him not to bring a TAG. Different game, I assure you.

Well, asking him not to bring the TAG is certainly the definitive solution. I'd feel a bit bad though, especially since the Gorgos was the whole reason my buddy chose Tohaa. We'll be "graduating" to 300 pts soon, so asking him to not bring the TAG at "full-points" seems a bit unfair to him. I imagine list-building for ITS and Paradiso puts pressures on you that make it difficult to run a TAG though.

Honestly, I was okay getting beat up by the TAG. Things weren't so one-sided that I felt like I got my teeth kicked in and all my candy stolen. Losing 3x in a row in the same day was pretty demoralizing, sure, but we both learned a lot. I'll ask for the occasional no-TAG game, just to mix things up and to explore vanilla Nomads without a TAG turning all my guys into slag.

I felt like I brought all the right anti-TAG tools though... Panzerfaust, HMG, ADHL, Crazy Koala, Repeaters + Hacker. The dice weren't with me, but I stacked the odds as best I could. In Game 1 I threw everything but the HMG and the ADHL at it in one ARO, along with 5 combi-rifles.

In an ideal world where I have all the models and all the points, I guess adding Interventors with their higher WIP, more of one to get the multiple hacking rolls, and maybe even an EVO repeater to get Icebreaker would give me a better shot at Disabling the TAG, but then they just Reset on their active turn... so we're back to order-pool destruction.

No pics, though?

I was waiting for someone to say that. I've been puzzling over the best kit to take pictures. I was thinking I'd take my Nikon D40 and the 35mm f/1.8 G, which also means I need to steal the glass back from the folks that I let borrow it. My FLGS usually has the lights pretty low, and during the day we get mixed color temperature in our lighting so it's a challenging photo environment. Although, a prime lens is probably not the best plan... Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/2.8 IS? Still have a flip-phone, so phone camera's not really an option either.

Photo-nerd stuff aside, now that I've got an official nudge to take pictures, I'll see what I can do. No promises on getting good pictures, but I'll do my best.

[Arachas]

Bad pics are better than no pics at all! I always used my Galaxy S or iPhone 4, pretty decent pics as long as there was light. I could then upload all the photos directly to Photobucket, no hassle.

My comment about the TAG was aimed at the 200 point level. Bringing one at 300 is much more balanced, considering you'll have far more to throw at it. Although I've seen my mate's O-Yoroi rip through some units in a row...

As a Nomad player myself, possessing a TAG is still on my "MUST DO" list.

[WiseKensai]

Gonna try to get a game in vs Caledonians tonight with a camera in tow. We'll see how it works out.

My comment about the TAG was aimed at the 200 point level. Bringing one at 300 is much more balanced, considering you'll have far more to throw at it. Although I've seen my mate's O-Yoroi rip through some units in a row...

Sorry if it seemed like I misread your comment, I was just thinking about asking him to bring a no-TAG list at 300 for our first few games so we can feel 300 pts out.

TAGs are rude at any points level, especially lower points level, it seems. After sleeping on it and thinking some more, it seems like ADHL is the best option in terms of points efficiency. Against the Gorgos that's a PH roll on a 10, and it cost me a 25/0.5 Hellcat to land the shot. If I take Interventors + EVO repeater, that's 39/1 total, plus whatever repeater I use to get in hacking range (or I risk getting my Interventor getting shot to pieces on the way over), and it's still 10's against the BTS 9 using Icebreaker. Admittedly the Interventors can hack other things like HI, REMs, etc, but if the list I'm facing is TAG + non-HI models then they're pretty single-use.

Food for thought.

As a Nomad player myself, possessing a TAG is still on my "MUST DO" list.

I wasn't super excited about TAGs starting Infinity, especially because it makes me really uneasy to have so many points tied up in a single model. That said, as I read more, learn more, and see TAGs in action the Iguana seems more and more awesome. Might have to get one of those at some point...

[Maverick]

Operation: Ice Storm actually suggests picking up an Iguana and a pair of Interventor hackers to round out your Nomad force for 300 point games. Of course, they also recommend a JOTUMS and a pair of Auxilia with AuxBots for fleshing out the PanOceania side, so maybe they just want to sell expensive minis.

I hope to be able to pick up my Iguana from my FLGS this evening, since my order is supposed to be in today.

[Arachas]

My mileage on the Iguana is very mixed. No, that's not even fair: it's downright bad. It usually gets shot up in the first turn. BUT the ejecting Operator never fails to impress afterwards.

[Errhile]

On the opposite, I'm OK with my Iguana. While it sometimes gets shot up, it is a calculated risk, and acceptable cost.

Though, honestly, I don't field it very often.

[Zen79]

With vanilla Nomads, you can bring a nice TAG yourself with the lizard. A friend of mine sometimes even plays it at 200 points.

[Errhile]

A Gecko is a fine lil' TAG too, and its point cost makes it go fine in a small points game. Even at 150pts, it remains viable. You need to go down to 100pts to get into "Gecko and a handful of Order Generators" which is often the case with other TAGs at low points values...

[WiseKensai]

To touch on the TAG sub-thread that's been going on: I've thus far avoided getting a TAG due to an irrational dislike of "too many eggs in one basket" syndrome. The Gecko seems like a reasonable compromise between TAG goodness and reasonable points cost, even if its armament seems a bit underwhelming. The Iguana is tempting on looks alone, but for its points/SWC I can bring a full link team like the examples below:

________________________________________________________
Lupe Balboa (23|0)
Alguacil Grenadier (15|1)
Alguacil Grenadier (15|1)
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
73 points | 2 swc

Alguacil HMG (19|1)
Alguacil Grenadier (15|1)
Alguacil FO/Repeater (14|0)
Alguacil FO/Repeater (14|0)
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
72 points | 2 swc
________________________________________________________

It's certainly not an apples-to-apples comparison, as they fit different roles and the Iguana is arguably much more survivable and scary. However, the key differentiator in my mind is the 4 additional orders I get for the same cost. At my current level of play, it seems that getting as many orders as possible on the table is the best way to secure a victory, especially in order-intensive objective games. Perhaps I will proxy a Tau XV8 Crisis Suit for a TAG one of these days and see how it performs.

And now for an awkward segue into killing/draining your opponent's order pool. My play group has finally "graduated" to 300 points and I'll be facing that Tohaa TAG again soon. It seems like I want the option of killing the TAG directly if that presents itself, or killing the TAG's order pool, whichever is easier as the situation develops on the board. I made up a likely Tohaa list, as well as a list tailored against high-tech enemies (PanO, Tohaa, etc.) for myself. Both are below:

Tohaa | 10 models
________________________________________________________

Gorgos (87|2)
Periferical
Ectros HMG (53|2)
Makaul Flamer (15|0)
Sakiel Viral (26|0)
Sakiel Lt (26|0)
Kamael Sniper (18|1)
Kamael Sniper (18|1)
Makaul Flamer (15|0)
Makaul Flamer (15|0)
Sakiel Viral (26|0)
________________________________________________________

299/300 points | 6/6 swc
open with Aleph Toolbox : http://goo.gl/iD0bTX

Nomads | 15 models
________________________________________________________

Combat Group #1
Interventor Lieutenant (26|0.5)
Interventor Hacker (26|0.5)
Lupe Balboa (23|0)
Zero Repeater/E-Mauler (24|0.5)
Zero Repeater/E-Mauler (24|0.5)
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
Tomcat Engineer (22|0)
Tomcat Doctor (22|0)

Combat Group #2
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
Alguacil Combi (10|0)
Sin-Eater HMG (34|2)
Salyut EVO (13|0.5)
Vertigo Zond GML (34|1)
________________________________________________________

298/300 points | 5.5/6 swc
open with Aleph Toolbox : http://goo.gl/DTbPSE

My reasoning:

• Sin-Eater HMG: If a TR Zond is good, a Sin-Eater must be better.
• Salyut EVO: For those BTS 6 and BTS 9 hackable things.
• Zeros: Get a repeater over the centerline ASAP for that TAG and any HI I might face, and generally be annoying.
• Interventors: If I'm going to hack, bring these. If one is good, two is better (and one will probably die).
• Vertigo Zond: I have Hacking Device+ and infiltrating repeaters on the board. If the situation presents itself, being able to drop AP+EXP templates on something seems good. This is also my "kill the TAG" option.
• Tomcats: For objectives and flame-throwering cheerleaders and symbiont armor.

I was very pleased with the performance of my Tomcat engineer my last game. She managed to get me an objective and BBQ 2/4 Tohaa troops before going down. I think template weapons are the way to drain an order pool, as they offer the best bang for your buck. If you spend 3 orders to get your troop in position and then only kill 1-2 models before losing your troop, that doesn't seem like a great exchange. The template helps by increasing the number of troops you could kill and thus somewhat offsets the number of orders you needed to spend to get the template-carrier in position.

That said, I don't have a lot of templates in this list that could get into the opponent's DZ aside from the 2 Tomcats and arguably a GML template. I'm a little concerned that this list is too focused on hacking shenanigans and is missing out on some of the other toys that Nomads get. I lose some mid-field area denial from minelaying Zeros, and I could do something like take Prowlers.

I don't think the above list is what I'm going to take, but I do think it's a reasonable shell. I really like the idea of a grenade-throwing Prowler, but his PH makes that unattractive. It would best if he could speculative a grenade to take out some cheerleaders, and then just sit there and make the opponent come get him, eating a shotgun to the face in the process. That would be in effect a double-drain on orders: 1) kill them outright 2) force the opponent to spend orders not accomplishing his objectives.

Mines are also great order-sinks, but I had to give them up to get infiltrating repeaters. Stuff dies a lot so it seems reasonable to want redundancy in my list. I also hear that E/Maulers are rubbish, which makes sense vs all the high-BTS stuff running around. Perhaps they are meant to shape the avenues of approach by threatening to turn people's combi-rifles off. This is my first real foray into list-building at 300 points, so any pointers (haha) are welcome.