Very newbie: PanOceania seem under-powered?

[Elric of Grans]

I am still trying to decide which faction I want to collect. PanOceania are one of my top-choices for loving the models, but I just cannot see how they translate to being an effective force on the table. Haqqislam have high WIP and fantastic Doctors, Ariadna have CH/Infiltration everywhere and a hoard of LI, Nomads have powerful hacking and MI with advanced deployment/mobility options, Tohaa have +1W models and Fireteams. These factions have advantages I can see the value of, but PanOceania's advantages seem weak by comparison. I have only played two games of Infinity so far, so I am VERY new and likely missing some big picture stuff, but PanOceania strikes me as being underpowered.

These seem to be the key points of the faction that define them:
* +1 BS compared to other factions, in a shooty game, but the winner of a face-to-face roll is the person who rolled closest to their target stat. If both players rolled 3, PanOceania's high BS is not helping them!
* Below-average WIP means that PanOceania has the worst specialists, in a game where specialists are critical to success. Their Doctor is the butt of jokes and their hacking options are second only to Ariadna in terms of ineptitude!
* They have access to the most TAGs of any faction, but unlike Yu Jing's HI or Nomads MI, you can only realistically field a single TAG in a game, so I am not sure how this is an advantage.
* My perception of Infinity was that movement and positioning were critical factors, more so than anything else. With the least access to skills aiding in these (eg AD, Infiltration, etc), PanOceania again seems to be severely disadvantaged.

I have never heard anyone state that PanOceania are under-powered, so I am sure I am failing to see some very critical factors. What is it that makes PanOceania 'click' on the table, and what types of play styles does it most easily support (ie players who want CH-spam probably want Ariadna, players who want to emphasise hacking probably want Nomads, etc).

[Errhile]

Please note that the "below average" WIP is 1 point lower than the standard. Which translates in 5% worse chance of completing the same objective. Well, 10%, if you compare to the above-average Haqq WIP of 14. Yes, 5% does make a difference (especially with multi-dice rolls like high-burst weapons), but it is bearable.

Now, the question is whether we discuss vanilla PanO, or its sectorials - I face Military Orders and Acontaciemento Shock Army on the table on regular basis. The sectorials are somewhat different.

Vanilla PanO - a typical feature for vanillas - does have it all. Paratroopers. Infiltrators. Load of TO Camo options. Mechanized Deployment. Some of them in Heavy Infantry armors. Some of them being decent Specialists (WIP 13).

[spoiler=]"Two TAGs in a 300pts list? Difficult, but doable"

PanOceania
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

Group 1 10 0 0
TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (2 | 78)
SQUALO (Armored Cav.) Lieutenant MULTI HMG / AP Heavy Pistol. (2 | 93)
SINGH Combi Rifle / Assault Pistol, CCW. (36)
MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (15)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (3)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (3)
AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (15)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (4)
AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (15)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (4)
REGULAR (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11)
REGULAR (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10)

5 SWC | 300 Points

Open with Army 5

You get 2 TAGs, 10 Regular Orders and 6 Specialists, one of them airlanding.[/spoiler]



But I agree, grass on the other side of the fence always seems greener

[TanKoL]

My experience of Infinity varies a LOT depending on what mission system I use
Please note that the below comments are only what I think after playing PanO (all flavors) intensively for a year or so

Deathmatch : quite brutal, PanO pew-pews well
YAMS : works fine, it's not a very order-intensive system
20x20 : seems to work ok, but I would need more games with experienced opponents to confirm
ITS : PanO is brutally weak

Let me comment further about ITS
ITS needs a LOT of orders, a ridiculous amount quite often
infiltrating / camo / reliable specialists are a must
Smoke and Warbands are extremely good, even on pretty open tables
Redundancy is awesome

PanO has close to nothing of those unless you play a spam NCA list
our specialists range from "crap" to "good" ... but our good specialists are super expensive and limited (Croc-man, nagas, swiss guard)
We have no smoke ... Yeah I know we have GdA for 50 pts ... I'll take 3 Irmandinhos for 24 pts, thanks
And so on

Basically, while it's easy to reach 20 orders (or close enough) loaded with infiltrating camo specialists with Haqq, YJ, Nomads or Ariadna, PanO struggles to do so, plus we don't get discounted ireggular / impetuous units

[VisOne]

Dem's the breaks.

In the game about shooting the shooty army is better at shooting than pushing buttons. Logical sequence is to protect your button pushers and wipe the table of theirs.

Guess what I do with my Shock Army? I protect my WIP 14 Naga's using their Camo and Dogged to the best of my advantage to assist this and I use my better BS to blow the shit out of anything that tries to stop them or get to the objectives first. Your lack of multi order groups is a conundrum so I bring 12 to 14 order lists 10 in one group and the others in the 2nd group. The second group is just an ARO threat but can be used to top up group 1 with orders thanks to the new command token rules.

example.

Shock Army of Acontecimento
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

Group 1 10 0 0
INDIGO Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10 / 12XP)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:13 ARM:0 BTS:0 W:1
Jungle Terrain, Hacking Device, Engineer, Chain of Command
NAGA Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 32)
NAGA Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 32)
MACAYANA Lieutenant HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85)
REGULAR Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 16)
REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10)
REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10)
REGULAR Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (12)
AKAL COMMANDO Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0.5 | 28)
PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (16)

Group 2 2 0 0
PEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun + AUXBOT_1 / Electric Pulse. (23)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (4)
SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)

5.5 SWC | 299 Points

[Stiopa]

Acon is quide good with the 'protection' part, what with that amount of minelayers and very decent snipers.

Consider this, Elric: PanO is positioned firmly on the hi-tech end of the Infinity armies scale, alongside Aleph, CA and to a lesser extent YJ. But our hi-tech units are less versatile, more specialized, which means they're cheaper. We also have access to cheap troop options, so we're not as outnumbered as typical CA or Aleph army is (Netrods/Imetrons are nice and all, but have their drawbacks and limitations). Specialization means our units are tailored for specific tasks in which they excel. Knights offer more versality, but have just a few specialist options. This trend is visible everywhere - we simply don't have as many flexible options as Nomads or Haqq does, but those we have are top notch.

What's more our showcase units are pricy, which gives the impression we're more restricted in our choices than we really are. In reality there are many less visible but extremely useful units here. Croc Men are top tier infiltrators, with no fat on them; their x-visor is very useful when you want to put one on Suppressive Fire duty. Hexas are another example - if you want a TO Camo sniper to sit in your DZ you can have one that does not pay for useless Infiltration. Acontecimento Regular is basically Shasvastii Haiduk that can link. Kirpal Singh is the most reliable Chain of Command unit in game, as he simply cannot be harmed and can cancel LoL state at our leisure. Auxilia (and Auxbot Sergeants) are amongst most efficient DTW units in the game, able to use template without the risk of losing a regular order. And even standard Fusiliers are frustrating for opponents that have to make do with BS10 line infantry. The list can go on without even entering HI and TAG territory.

And I'd not underestimate the power of those. You might be fielding only a single TAG or 2-3 HIs, but they all have the weight to tip the balance in your favor, by denying enemy his plan and forcing him to react to yours. Cutter is superb at changing the pace of the battle - let's say you reveal him in the second half of enemy's first turn, when he's already short on orders. He can't accomplish his original goal and don't have the orders to reliably deal with the Cutter. Other TAGs have their own tricks as well. Sepulchre knight and Swiss Guard are also excellent at tripping your enemy plans, while units like Aquila or Guarda de Assalto are pure awesomeness in assault. So yes, we might lack the toys and tricks of other armies, but between all our choices we're the masters of 'neutralize threats first, go about doing objectives second' strategy.

Yeah, I envied other armies flexibility, too. But I got better

[ShadowDrake777]

These seem to be the key points of the faction that define them:
* +1 BS compared to other factions, in a shooty game, but the winner of a face-to-face roll is the person who rolled closest to their target stat. If both players rolled 3, PanOceania's high BS is not helping them!

This is the stat that gets rolled the most so its the best stat to be higher in.

* Below-average WIP means that PanOceania has the worst specialists, in a game where specialists are critical to success. Their Doctor is the butt of jokes and their hacking options are second only to Ariadna in terms of ineptitude!

Command tokens can be used on Doctor and Engineer rolls for cubed and remote presence so its not an issue except for objectives and even then its not often I'm missing by 1-2, Its like CC when you roll only 1 die you get wild variations on the statistical norms and it becomes somewhat of a gamble.

* They have access to the most TAGs of any faction, but unlike Yu Jing's HI or Nomads MI, you can only realistically field a single TAG in a game, so I am not sure how this is an advantage.

Do you need more than 1 TAG? I think because our cheaper tags don't have models you don't seem them used much. For lol's I ran a 10 order double Jotum list with an engineer and 3x FO Fusileer as my specialists.

* My perception of Infinity was that movement and positioning were critical factors, more so than anything else. With the least access to skills aiding in these (eg AD, Infiltration, etc), PanOceania again seems to be severely disadvantaged.

PanO has many AD, Infiltration, and Hidden Deployment options. They can't spam these options but having 2 or 3 quality options can make up for the lack of quantity.

I have never heard anyone state that PanOceania are under-powered, so I am sure I am failing to see some very critical factors. What is it that makes PanOceania 'click' on the table, and what types of play styles does it most easily support (ie players who want CH-spam probably want Ariadna, players who want to emphasise hacking probably want Nomads, etc).

PanO has high quality troops and things they don't have access to like smoke or mass camo they counter with many options for MSV2+ and good BS then follow up with their own TO units which those armies don't have direct counters for. PanO is the elite army with high tech toys that is what makes the click.

[WookieeGunner]

One thing to remember is that in Face-to-Face rolls, its the mods, not the stats that matter. For example, my standard Yu Jing load-out includes to Guilang Forward Observers and a Celestial Guard with Kang-shi controller. Now the Guilang are Camo infiltrators and the CG has a smoke launcher.

Now let's say you have an Aquilla Guard with HMG. For starters the Aquilla Guard has MSV lvl 3, so can auto-discover my Guilang. In addition, the MSV3 can be used as an MSV2 to negate the BS modifier from the Guilang's camo, or the smoke grenades from the Celestial Guard. Hide him a bit farther back and in partial and suddenly you are at a +3 BS (+3 range band, no modifier from camo or special dodge from smoke) to my combi-rifles -6 (assuming -3 range band and -3 for partial cover).