How to counter this with PanO
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Help! I've just started playing infinity and have chosen PanO to get my feet wet, a friend of mine has gone for Aleph and has put the attached list together, which I have absolutely no idea how to deal with. You get so much Myrmidon for so little point cost it seems broken, and once they get into melee range it's pretty much gg for me. How would an experienced PanO player counter the attached list? Any and all advice welcome (we usually play with 300pt squads).
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Steel!.pdf- (415.05 KiB) Downloaded 678 times
While I'm not a PanO player...
First, don't play 300pts games just to get your feet wet. Suggested method is to start at 120 or 150pts, and then raise it.
Second, well don't let him into CC then. Shoot him before he does close in. Yeah, I know, all that ODD is irritiating. But you have enogh Multi Spectral Visors in PanO to see through it. And enough Flamethrowers to burn it off (preferably Heavy Flamethrowers), and these - beign Direct Template Weapons - just don't give a damn about ODD (or anything else, for that matter). Stuff like Auxilia with their bots (so yeah, you get the Auxbot out and burn his Enomotarchos team, he blasts you to hell with Chainrifles. Big deal, you''ve only lost that bot, he lost his ODD, and now you can pick him with rifle fire).
Third, no army likes being in Loss of Lieutenant. And Phoenix is pretty obvious one here.
Set mines. Plant Drop Bears. Cover long fire lanes with sniper fire. Have an Akalis or a Crusader Brother wait for his moment and wreak havoc on your opponent's rear area...
First, don't play 300pts games just to get your feet wet. Suggested method is to start at 120 or 150pts, and then raise it.
Second, well don't let him into CC then. Shoot him before he does close in. Yeah, I know, all that ODD is irritiating. But you have enogh Multi Spectral Visors in PanO to see through it. And enough Flamethrowers to burn it off (preferably Heavy Flamethrowers), and these - beign Direct Template Weapons - just don't give a damn about ODD (or anything else, for that matter). Stuff like Auxilia with their bots (so yeah, you get the Auxbot out and burn his Enomotarchos team, he blasts you to hell with Chainrifles. Big deal, you''ve only lost that bot, he lost his ODD, and now you can pick him with rifle fire).
Third, no army likes being in Loss of Lieutenant. And Phoenix is pretty obvious one here.
Set mines. Plant Drop Bears. Cover long fire lanes with sniper fire. Have an Akalis or a Crusader Brother wait for his moment and wreak havoc on your opponent's rear area...
They say there will be Heaven and the Fount of Kausar,
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
As a PanO player I can endorse pretty much everything Errhile said. A few other things to think about:
Aside from Phoenix his list is pretty short-ranged; if you can position a sniper in a way that allows him to fire at Phoenix from longer range than 32", you'll have a pretty good chance of either taking him down or at least slowing his advance. Nisses are perfect here - it counters ODD, smoke, while having Mimetism of their own. Because of ODD the usual guardians - Sierra Dronbots - won't be too effective, as they'll hit on 1-5 at best. Another thing is to slow him down - use mines, snipers, camo units and TAGs in cover to force your enemy to burn orders - either to engage in firefights, dodging mines, or throwing smoke. Each order lost on doing that is an order not used to get closer to you. You want him to spend his turn as ineffectively as possible. Every army is most dangerous in its active turn; PanO it's doubly so, because of our high BS.
Full fireteam will negate a lot of Phalanx advantages - it gets +3 BS that helps against ODD, can shoot back through smoke with no penalties. If your team can have an MSV (Bagh-Mari, Order Sergeants + Konstantinos), or a template weapon of some kind (Bolts, Fusiliers+Bipandra, Bagh-Mari again, knights) it can be very dangerous in your active turn.
As for template effectiveness - it varies. 4-man strong Myrmidon teams will always dodge at full effectiveness. Bud dodging means they're not shooting at you, so you can try again. It's good if you can force your opponent to dodge multiple templates at once, covering as many Myrmidons as you can with them. The more rolls he makes the better chance of losing some of those rolls. Guarda de Assalto (flamethrower and light shotgun at the same time), Peacemaker (flamethrower and heavy shotgun) or Seraph (flamethrower and Nanopulser) are great at this. Also, sometimes it's even better if they shoot instead of dodging. A hit from the flamethrower destroys ODD even if target passes his armor save. That's why Auxbots are so nasty - if enemy dodges, it's not shooting at your bot. If they shoot, they lose their ODD, and you're losing a 4 pts drone that doesn't cost you an order.
There's also the brute force approach. Take Aquila Guard or Swiss Guard, Guarda de Assalto, one of the TAGs, Crusader with Multi Rifle and flamethrower, etc, and go for an active turn hunt. High BS makes a difference. If you can flank your enemy he's only defence is ODD - and your BS 15 unit still hits on 1-9. If you can use Shock ammo - Multi weapons are your friend - you can bypass NWI on his heroes, too.
If you can tell us what army you're using we might be able to come with some more specific tips.
Aside from Phoenix his list is pretty short-ranged; if you can position a sniper in a way that allows him to fire at Phoenix from longer range than 32", you'll have a pretty good chance of either taking him down or at least slowing his advance. Nisses are perfect here - it counters ODD, smoke, while having Mimetism of their own. Because of ODD the usual guardians - Sierra Dronbots - won't be too effective, as they'll hit on 1-5 at best. Another thing is to slow him down - use mines, snipers, camo units and TAGs in cover to force your enemy to burn orders - either to engage in firefights, dodging mines, or throwing smoke. Each order lost on doing that is an order not used to get closer to you. You want him to spend his turn as ineffectively as possible. Every army is most dangerous in its active turn; PanO it's doubly so, because of our high BS.
Full fireteam will negate a lot of Phalanx advantages - it gets +3 BS that helps against ODD, can shoot back through smoke with no penalties. If your team can have an MSV (Bagh-Mari, Order Sergeants + Konstantinos), or a template weapon of some kind (Bolts, Fusiliers+Bipandra, Bagh-Mari again, knights) it can be very dangerous in your active turn.
As for template effectiveness - it varies. 4-man strong Myrmidon teams will always dodge at full effectiveness. Bud dodging means they're not shooting at you, so you can try again. It's good if you can force your opponent to dodge multiple templates at once, covering as many Myrmidons as you can with them. The more rolls he makes the better chance of losing some of those rolls. Guarda de Assalto (flamethrower and light shotgun at the same time), Peacemaker (flamethrower and heavy shotgun) or Seraph (flamethrower and Nanopulser) are great at this. Also, sometimes it's even better if they shoot instead of dodging. A hit from the flamethrower destroys ODD even if target passes his armor save. That's why Auxbots are so nasty - if enemy dodges, it's not shooting at your bot. If they shoot, they lose their ODD, and you're losing a 4 pts drone that doesn't cost you an order.
There's also the brute force approach. Take Aquila Guard or Swiss Guard, Guarda de Assalto, one of the TAGs, Crusader with Multi Rifle and flamethrower, etc, and go for an active turn hunt. High BS makes a difference. If you can flank your enemy he's only defence is ODD - and your BS 15 unit still hits on 1-9. If you can use Shock ammo - Multi weapons are your friend - you can bypass NWI on his heroes, too.
If you can tell us what army you're using we might be able to come with some more specific tips.
I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but shouldn't we just take the warning labels off everything and let the problem deal with itself?
Hey thank you both for the tips, I really appreciate it. While we're on the topic of mines, can someone explain the difference between a croc man with antipersonnel mines, and one with mines but also the minelayer trait? I don't really understand how this works or what the trait gives you over just having them as one of your weapons? But really great advice, I only played one match against his aleph forces but he just shot up the map like a jackrabbit and proceeded to repeatedly punch every guy I had in the face until they was ded... 
I put together the attached list, as a flexible force it leaves a lot to be desired but as a direct response to his army I'd be keen to get your opinions. Thanks again!
The pdf of my army is too big to attach unfortunately but it's basically
Stephen Rao Lieutenant
2xBagh Mari with HMG
2xCroc Man with combi rifle and antipersonnel mines
Nisse with MSR
Nisse hacker with combi rifle
Brother Konstantinos
A Bulleteer with Spitfire
2xAuxilia
a Fusilier
We'll see what he thinks of that the next time we play.
I put together the attached list, as a flexible force it leaves a lot to be desired but as a direct response to his army I'd be keen to get your opinions. Thanks again!The pdf of my army is too big to attach unfortunately but it's basically
Stephen Rao Lieutenant
2xBagh Mari with HMG
2xCroc Man with combi rifle and antipersonnel mines
Nisse with MSR
Nisse hacker with combi rifle
Brother Konstantinos
A Bulleteer with Spitfire
2xAuxilia
a Fusilier
We'll see what he thinks of that the next time we play.
@ minelayer trait: this skill allows you to deploy the model, and have one of his deployables (Mines, E/Maulers, Sniffers, whatever he has in stock) already deployed on table.
Sure, it has to be within the model's Zone of Control (8"), and can't be in another table zone (at least with 2ed rules, the skill is to be described anew in HSN3) - basically, if Crocman's Infiltration allows him to deploy up to table's central line, his mine cannot be deployed on the enemy's table half. You can't also deploy mines in a way that would have enemy models (or Camo Markers) in their Area of Effect (so no instant boom).
Which actually is a big advantage, especially if you start second: the mine is already there, and forcing the opponent to deal with it.
As for the army list - you don't attach .pdf's, you export the list to the forum. So your list looks roughly like that:
PanOceania
──────────────────────────────────────────────────
GROUP 1
10
LT. STEPHEN RAO Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
BAGH-MARI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26)
BAGH-MARI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26)
CROC MAN Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
CROC MAN Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
NISSE Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle+ Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 38)
BROTHER KONSTANTINOS Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Assault Pistol, CCW. (0 | 29)
BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
AUXILIA Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
GROUP 2 2
AUXILIA Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
6 SWC | 299 Points
Open in Infinity Army
Now, there's a tiny issue: how do you intend to divide your models into groups?
Because with 12 models, you are forced to: a Combat group cannot be larger than 10 models.
I took a little liberty in modifying your list:
PanOceania
──────────────────────────────────────────────────
GROUP 1 10
LT. STEPHEN RAO Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
BAGH-MARI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26)
BROTHER KONSTANTINOS Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Assault Pistol, CCW. (0 | 29)
BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
AUXILIA Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
AUXILIA Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
AKAL COMMANDO Combi Rifle + E/Mitter / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 24)
CROC MAN (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31)
CROC MAN (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31)
BIPANDRA Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
GROUP 2 2
NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
6 SWC | 299 Points
Open in Infinity Army
Sure, it has to be within the model's Zone of Control (8"), and can't be in another table zone (at least with 2ed rules, the skill is to be described anew in HSN3) - basically, if Crocman's Infiltration allows him to deploy up to table's central line, his mine cannot be deployed on the enemy's table half. You can't also deploy mines in a way that would have enemy models (or Camo Markers) in their Area of Effect (so no instant boom).
Which actually is a big advantage, especially if you start second: the mine is already there, and forcing the opponent to deal with it.
As for the army list - you don't attach .pdf's, you export the list to the forum. So your list looks roughly like that:
PanOceania──────────────────────────────────────────────────
GROUP 1
10 LT. STEPHEN RAO Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) BAGH-MARI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26) BAGH-MARI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26) CROC MAN Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30) CROC MAN Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30) NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34) NISSE Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle+ Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 38) BROTHER KONSTANTINOS Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Assault Pistol, CCW. (0 | 29) BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) AUXILIA Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)GROUP 2
2 AUXILIA Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)6 SWC | 299 Points
Open in Infinity Army
Now, there's a tiny issue: how do you intend to divide your models into groups?
Because with 12 models, you are forced to: a Combat group cannot be larger than 10 models.
I took a little liberty in modifying your list:
PanOceania──────────────────────────────────────────────────
GROUP 1
10 LT. STEPHEN RAO Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) BAGH-MARI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26) BROTHER KONSTANTINOS Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Assault Pistol, CCW. (0 | 29) BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) AUXILIA Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) AUXILIA Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) AKAL COMMANDO Combi Rifle + E/Mitter / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 24) CROC MAN (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31) CROC MAN (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31) BIPANDRA Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)GROUP 2
2 NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34) FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)6 SWC | 299 Points
Open in Infinity Army
They say there will be Heaven and the Fount of Kausar,
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
Thanks again, this is massively helpful, and sorry for the .pdfs, I'm still figuring out how to do stuff here, and it's great to have a friendly and helpful community to get tips from. I like your list a lot, I'm assuming the palbots are basically cheerleaders, and with only two orders the nisse will primarily be used to ARO? Also good to have a doctor option, I never give Birpanda enough credit in my lists...
Thanks so much as well for the minelayer clarification, I must have read the rules and the wiki eight times and I still just didn't get it. So is it only during the deployment phase that he can lay a mine in his zone of control? Am I right in saying that in all other cases, including intuitive attacks, when you lay a mine (even with the trait) it has to be in contact with your base, or if you moved somewhere it has to fall along the route you took (so you basically drop it as you run)? Or does the minelayer trait also allow you to deploy your other two mines anywhere in your zone of control (pretty sure not but just want to be 100% on this)? Will a mine detonate if the minelayer or an ally is in its trigger area but behind total cover? Or do you have to drop it and then move completely out of its trigger area before it becomes "active?" Again sorry as these are probably total noob questions but I just don't find the rules all that clear on mines in general..
Finally, even though the orders are split, am I right in saying things like traits affect everyone, regardless - for example I could use my hacker to help the Sikh stick his landing even though they're in different groups? Or if I had a forward observer in one group and a guy with a grenade lanucher in another the FO could still spot for him?
Thank you again for all your help, I really do appreciate it!
Thanks so much as well for the minelayer clarification, I must have read the rules and the wiki eight times and I still just didn't get it. So is it only during the deployment phase that he can lay a mine in his zone of control? Am I right in saying that in all other cases, including intuitive attacks, when you lay a mine (even with the trait) it has to be in contact with your base, or if you moved somewhere it has to fall along the route you took (so you basically drop it as you run)? Or does the minelayer trait also allow you to deploy your other two mines anywhere in your zone of control (pretty sure not but just want to be 100% on this)? Will a mine detonate if the minelayer or an ally is in its trigger area but behind total cover? Or do you have to drop it and then move completely out of its trigger area before it becomes "active?" Again sorry as these are probably total noob questions but I just don't find the rules all that clear on mines in general..
Finally, even though the orders are split, am I right in saying things like traits affect everyone, regardless - for example I could use my hacker to help the Sikh stick his landing even though they're in different groups? Or if I had a forward observer in one group and a guy with a grenade lanucher in another the FO could still spot for him?
Thank you again for all your help, I really do appreciate it!
No worries, everybody was starting once, we all had to figure things out 
And we do try to be a helpful and vitriol-free community.
"Cheerleaders" are cheap, basic models whose only real purpose is to guard Deployment Zone and provide orders. Palbots are Ghost:Servant remotes, which doesn't provide orders at all, but are controlled by a Doctor or Engineer instead. Unlike G:Synchronized units they have no range limit so can operate on the other side of the table if you need. Your Doc/Eng can use them to heal or repair units via those helper bots, without moving from their cover.
As for minelayer - you're right, it allows you to deploy only one of your mines/sniffers/e/maulers/etc. from the beginning. The other two can only be deployed normally during the game, in base contact with model or dropped along his route if moving. Mine counts as deployed on table at the end of the order in which you deployed it, so enemy can't shoot or discover a mine in ARO. Mines also don't need to be activated - after the order in which they were deployed they're immediately armed and , must explode at anytime enemy unit activates or performs ARO in mine's Area of Effect - which mine whole area that can be hit by mine's template. When a mine explode you place a small teardrop template so that it touches the unit that set it off, and as many other enemy units as you can manage. Friendly units can be in mine's Area of Effect - they block mine's explosion only if they end up under mine's template. If you can place the template in a way that touches enemy unit without touching yours - no problem. You can even place the template diagonally over your models silhouette - or base, if they're prone.
There's also a nasty trick that use mines - if your enemy positions his link team behind a corner with models in a single line or close to it, you can move your unit close to the corner without seeing each other, then you place mine in enemy unit's view - it can't do anything to the mine itself - and in next order you move your unit to see one member of enemy fireteam and shoot him. If he declares any ARO, the mine goes off and can potentially hit multiple enemy models. If he declares no ARO - you're shooting him unopposed. If he declares shooting with one unit and dodge with others, the fireteam splits, or even breaks completely. And remember, any dodge against deployable weapons is made at -3 to PH
And yes, it doesn't matter if your hacker or FO are in different groups. They work just as well. The only limitation is 1) no sharing of regular orders between groups and 2) no Coordinated Orders with units from different groups. Otherwise you're fine.
And we do try to be a helpful and vitriol-free community."Cheerleaders" are cheap, basic models whose only real purpose is to guard Deployment Zone and provide orders. Palbots are Ghost:Servant remotes, which doesn't provide orders at all, but are controlled by a Doctor or Engineer instead. Unlike G:Synchronized units they have no range limit so can operate on the other side of the table if you need. Your Doc/Eng can use them to heal or repair units via those helper bots, without moving from their cover.
As for minelayer - you're right, it allows you to deploy only one of your mines/sniffers/e/maulers/etc. from the beginning. The other two can only be deployed normally during the game, in base contact with model or dropped along his route if moving. Mine counts as deployed on table at the end of the order in which you deployed it, so enemy can't shoot or discover a mine in ARO. Mines also don't need to be activated - after the order in which they were deployed they're immediately armed and , must explode at anytime enemy unit activates or performs ARO in mine's Area of Effect - which mine whole area that can be hit by mine's template. When a mine explode you place a small teardrop template so that it touches the unit that set it off, and as many other enemy units as you can manage. Friendly units can be in mine's Area of Effect - they block mine's explosion only if they end up under mine's template. If you can place the template in a way that touches enemy unit without touching yours - no problem. You can even place the template diagonally over your models silhouette - or base, if they're prone.
There's also a nasty trick that use mines - if your enemy positions his link team behind a corner with models in a single line or close to it, you can move your unit close to the corner without seeing each other, then you place mine in enemy unit's view - it can't do anything to the mine itself - and in next order you move your unit to see one member of enemy fireteam and shoot him. If he declares any ARO, the mine goes off and can potentially hit multiple enemy models. If he declares no ARO - you're shooting him unopposed. If he declares shooting with one unit and dodge with others, the fireteam splits, or even breaks completely. And remember, any dodge against deployable weapons is made at -3 to PH
And yes, it doesn't matter if your hacker or FO are in different groups. They work just as well. The only limitation is 1) no sharing of regular orders between groups and 2) no Coordinated Orders with units from different groups. Otherwise you're fine.
I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but shouldn't we just take the warning labels off everything and let the problem deal with itself?
Yes, the Nisse is there primarily as ARO piece. You can later move him to the main combat group, if required, but he'll do fine in the secondary one. Just make sure you've positioned him well: with enough long fire lanes to control. 2 Orders will be enough to adjust firing position and / or hammer away 2 Orders worth of shooting.
If your opponent is worth his salt, he'll identify the danger, and the sniper won't have many opportunities to shoot anyway. But just in case - keep a Palbot near him (but outside of a Circular Template range, in case Phoenix gets lucky with his HRL). Sniper's role is providing you with area control / area denial. Making it difficult for your opponent to move.
Bipandra is expensive for what she does, but IIRC the next sensible Doc option is even more expensive (Hospitalier Doc). And I dropped the other Bagh Mari HMG to have SWC for Crocman Minelayers. They should do well blosking mid-table chokepoints with their Mines, and slowing your opponent down. Keep in mind that if you start second, you can spendone of your Command Tokens to remove 2 Orders from one of the enemy Groups for the duration of hs first turn. Which hurts him pretty badly.
If your opponent is worth his salt, he'll identify the danger, and the sniper won't have many opportunities to shoot anyway. But just in case - keep a Palbot near him (but outside of a Circular Template range, in case Phoenix gets lucky with his HRL). Sniper's role is providing you with area control / area denial. Making it difficult for your opponent to move.
Bipandra is expensive for what she does, but IIRC the next sensible Doc option is even more expensive (Hospitalier Doc). And I dropped the other Bagh Mari HMG to have SWC for Crocman Minelayers. They should do well blosking mid-table chokepoints with their Mines, and slowing your opponent down. Keep in mind that if you start second, you can spendone of your Command Tokens to remove 2 Orders from one of the enemy Groups for the duration of hs first turn. Which hurts him pretty badly.
They say there will be Heaven and the Fount of Kausar,
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
Mate my friends and I need you on retainer, this stuff is gold.
Not only did you totally clear up all my confusion over mines, you also made me realise I was getting a mine's blast radius/template and Area of Effect completely mixed up AND then you go and answer a question I wanted to ask but didn't because it was fairly in-depth and I didn't know how to explain it properly, namely the "deploying a mine around a corner" strategy, which is absolutely ace! So can an enemy outside of a mine's AoE actually target it with a BS attack, or only try to discover it? If not that means once it's deployed a mine is basically a permanent fixture on the map until it's triggered? If it can be attacked once discovered, I'm assuming it's just a straight skill roll and you either hit and destroy it or miss with no adverse effects? (Every answer spawns two more questions lol!)
I also didn't know that palbots didn't generate orders, that explains why they're so ridiculously cheap now... So they use orders, but don't contribute to the pool, which is why they have to be part of the main group rather than on their own, as then they couldn't ever move?
All of your second post makes perfect sense, and really fits my preferred playstyle, namely locking down areas and trying to set up overlapping fields of fire to maximise AROs. I like to try to play a frustration game if possible, positioning troops so they leave no good options for the enemy, which can lead to stupidity... so your list, or a variation of it, may end up being my go to army.
What's all this about spending a command token to take away two of his moves?! Sorry I didn't see this anywhere in the rules, I really need a re-read of it right from the beginning I think, I'm sure we're all missing a ton of stuff. It's a fine line between tactical complexity and over-complication; I'm still not sure where Infinity falls yet, tbh!
Really thanks again, can't tell you how much this has helped!
Not only did you totally clear up all my confusion over mines, you also made me realise I was getting a mine's blast radius/template and Area of Effect completely mixed up AND then you go and answer a question I wanted to ask but didn't because it was fairly in-depth and I didn't know how to explain it properly, namely the "deploying a mine around a corner" strategy, which is absolutely ace! So can an enemy outside of a mine's AoE actually target it with a BS attack, or only try to discover it? If not that means once it's deployed a mine is basically a permanent fixture on the map until it's triggered? If it can be attacked once discovered, I'm assuming it's just a straight skill roll and you either hit and destroy it or miss with no adverse effects? (Every answer spawns two more questions lol!)
I also didn't know that palbots didn't generate orders, that explains why they're so ridiculously cheap now... So they use orders, but don't contribute to the pool, which is why they have to be part of the main group rather than on their own, as then they couldn't ever move?
All of your second post makes perfect sense, and really fits my preferred playstyle, namely locking down areas and trying to set up overlapping fields of fire to maximise AROs. I like to try to play a frustration game if possible, positioning troops so they leave no good options for the enemy, which can lead to stupidity... so your list, or a variation of it, may end up being my go to army.
What's all this about spending a command token to take away two of his moves?! Sorry I didn't see this anywhere in the rules, I really need a re-read of it right from the beginning I think, I'm sure we're all missing a ton of stuff. It's a fine line between tactical complexity and over-complication; I'm still not sure where Infinity falls yet, tbh!
Really thanks again, can't tell you how much this has helped!
@ Mine around a corner - the mine is, as usual, deployed as Camo Marker. So while it can be destroyed by gunfire, you need to Discover it first (and to do so, you need to draw a Line of Sight to it). And once attacked (indeed, a straight Attack roll), it must be hit and then fail an ARM roll (mines being ARM 0) to be effectively remeved from table.
There are a number of other mine clearing techniques - Deactivator (every Engineer packs one), Minesweeper (on some REMs, including PanO Mulebots - it actually turns enemy mines into your mines, messing up their IFF sensor), or just sending a cheap warm body to trigger it... and hope it manages to Dodge or at least survive the blast (holoechos from Holo L2 work perfect here - sure, they are blasted, but they will reactivate at the start of enemy's next turn as HSN3 says).
@ Palbots (and eqivalent G:Servant REMs in other factions) - they don't even use Orders themselves - their controller (who must be a Doc or an Engineer, or in a few cases can be both at once!) does. So, you activate Bipandra, and at the same time one of her Palbots (for she can have as many as AVA permits) gets activated as well, and both of them perform the same Skill sequence. For example, Move + Move (which may mean each of them covering as many inches of the table as MOV permits, or one moving, and the other just staying in place), and then in next Order Move + Doctor (using controller's WIP).
However, if the controller drops unconscious (or any of the toher nasty things happens to her), the 'bot disconnects, anddoes nothing untill the controller is back in the game.
@ stealin' moves - this is described in the rulebook under Command Tokens. One of the many uses for these is - provided you're not getting the first turn (or as we call it locally "ball advantage" as in "field or ball?") - to spend one Command Token, and name enemy Combat Group that will lose 2 Orders from its Order Pool in the enemy turn one.
I suggest you re-read the section, for Command Tokens are a powerful tool, and it would be a waste to left it unused
There are a number of other mine clearing techniques - Deactivator (every Engineer packs one), Minesweeper (on some REMs, including PanO Mulebots - it actually turns enemy mines into your mines, messing up their IFF sensor), or just sending a cheap warm body to trigger it... and hope it manages to Dodge or at least survive the blast (holoechos from Holo L2 work perfect here - sure, they are blasted, but they will reactivate at the start of enemy's next turn as HSN3 says).
@ Palbots (and eqivalent G:Servant REMs in other factions) - they don't even use Orders themselves - their controller (who must be a Doc or an Engineer, or in a few cases can be both at once!) does. So, you activate Bipandra, and at the same time one of her Palbots (for she can have as many as AVA permits) gets activated as well, and both of them perform the same Skill sequence. For example, Move + Move (which may mean each of them covering as many inches of the table as MOV permits, or one moving, and the other just staying in place), and then in next Order Move + Doctor (using controller's WIP).
However, if the controller drops unconscious (or any of the toher nasty things happens to her), the 'bot disconnects, anddoes nothing untill the controller is back in the game.
@ stealin' moves - this is described in the rulebook under Command Tokens. One of the many uses for these is - provided you're not getting the first turn (or as we call it locally "ball advantage" as in "field or ball?") - to spend one Command Token, and name enemy Combat Group that will lose 2 Orders from its Order Pool in the enemy turn one.
I suggest you re-read the section, for Command Tokens are a powerful tool, and it would be a waste to left it unused
They say there will be Heaven and the Fount of Kausar,
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
Helping new players is part of the fun
Yes, mine can be discovered and shot at like every other model or piece of equipment. Mines, Sniffers, Crazy Koalas - all can be dealt with from beyond their own range.
Additional thing about mines is that they help with mind games. Camo marker with mine under it has the same Silhouette 2 as standard infantry, so enemy can't be sure is it a mine or a trooper. since you can deploy your Croc Men completely hidden that mine's marker is the only thing on table. You can also deploy Croc Man as a camo marker himself, and play with your deployment places to make enemy guess which marker will shoot and which will explode in his face. There's a lot of fun in playing mind games with opponent.
If you like blocking and restricting enemy movement, you might consider mastering proper "hammer&anvil" strategy. Short explanation if you're not familiar with the term - it's a military strategy of holding enemy in one place with one unit that has a lot of staying power, and then flanking him with more mobile elements and attacking from the side or rear, catching enemy units in between. Hence, hammer&anvil. In Infinity it usually means taking units that can hold their own even in the reactive turn - Total Reaction bot, sniper deployed to take advantage of range, Heavy Infantry or TAG with a heavy weapon, etc. Suppressive fire also helps, once you'll have at least one turn to set it up. Make sure they're hard to engage on enemy's terms, so he has to attack from beyond his own effective range at least once or twice, or lose a lot of orders on bypassing the threat. This will limit his mobility, and that can be exploited by your flankers - Bulleteer/Peacemaker bots, paratroopers, a TAG, even a good HI will do. Look up Swiss Guard with Missile Launcher and Jotum TAG - both are very resilient and dangerous if used properly.
Yes, mine can be discovered and shot at like every other model or piece of equipment. Mines, Sniffers, Crazy Koalas - all can be dealt with from beyond their own range.
Additional thing about mines is that they help with mind games. Camo marker with mine under it has the same Silhouette 2 as standard infantry, so enemy can't be sure is it a mine or a trooper. since you can deploy your Croc Men completely hidden that mine's marker is the only thing on table. You can also deploy Croc Man as a camo marker himself, and play with your deployment places to make enemy guess which marker will shoot and which will explode in his face. There's a lot of fun in playing mind games with opponent.
If you like blocking and restricting enemy movement, you might consider mastering proper "hammer&anvil" strategy. Short explanation if you're not familiar with the term - it's a military strategy of holding enemy in one place with one unit that has a lot of staying power, and then flanking him with more mobile elements and attacking from the side or rear, catching enemy units in between. Hence, hammer&anvil. In Infinity it usually means taking units that can hold their own even in the reactive turn - Total Reaction bot, sniper deployed to take advantage of range, Heavy Infantry or TAG with a heavy weapon, etc. Suppressive fire also helps, once you'll have at least one turn to set it up. Make sure they're hard to engage on enemy's terms, so he has to attack from beyond his own effective range at least once or twice, or lose a lot of orders on bypassing the threat. This will limit his mobility, and that can be exploited by your flankers - Bulleteer/Peacemaker bots, paratroopers, a TAG, even a good HI will do. Look up Swiss Guard with Missile Launcher and Jotum TAG - both are very resilient and dangerous if used properly.
I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but shouldn't we just take the warning labels off everything and let the problem deal with itself?
Thanks again to both of you for all of your advice, it's immensely helpful, and I'm glad you enjoy helping the noobers, I'm sure I'll give you many more opportunities for enjoyment in the future if that's the case.
I'm in the process of rereading the rulebook from the start now, to try to capture anything I've missed. I'm new to infinity but a long time player of strategy wargames, so the concepts and the tactics are familiar, it's just getting the particular rules and abilities straight. It would have been much better if at least one of the guys I play with really knew what he was doing, but we all started at the same time so we're sort of all in the same boat, so having a friendly community willing to help new players is invaluable.
Thanks again!
I'm in the process of rereading the rulebook from the start now, to try to capture anything I've missed. I'm new to infinity but a long time player of strategy wargames, so the concepts and the tactics are familiar, it's just getting the particular rules and abilities straight. It would have been much better if at least one of the guys I play with really knew what he was doing, but we all started at the same time so we're sort of all in the same boat, so having a friendly community willing to help new players is invaluable.
Thanks again!
Glad we could help
If the other members of your meta feel they need a bit of advice, or just a sounding board, feel free to point them towards DataSphere
If the other members of your meta feel they need a bit of advice, or just a sounding board, feel free to point them towards DataSphere
They say there will be Heaven and the Fount of Kausar,
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
Hehe being the oldest member of the group, they're all way ahead of me when it comes to finding out stuff on the net... (see, showing my age just by calling it "the net...") In fact, they were the ones who strongly suggested I avail myself of all the lovely resources online in the first place. ;D I'm now mentally digesting all the brilliant info in this thread in preparation for a fresh batch of "Can you explain this please?" questions...
If I'll get around to creating some article for newcomers I'm so stealing "Can you explain this, please?" as a title
As Errhile said, we're glad to help
As Errhile said, we're glad to help
I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but shouldn't we just take the warning labels off everything and let the problem deal with itself?
Also, look at the Pathfinder Dronbot. Since it has Forward Observer and Sensor it can do a SatLock. This is a WIP-6 roll that puts the targeted model in the targeted state. Being in the targeted state gives the rest of your forces a +3 on BS attacks, so that will help soften the ODD modifiers. Also, it can do triangulated fire which is a long order but does a BS attack at a flat -3 with no other mods.
- WookieeGunner
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Would like to note that I, too, was appalled playing against ALEPH at first (it didn't help that the player using them was pretty WAAC in his demeanor).
But yeah, in Infinity, you just have to find a solution to deal with your problem. It's usually there.
But yeah, in Infinity, you just have to find a solution to deal with your problem. It's usually there.
I was mostly appalled at how much you got for so little cost, all his guys were like 31 cost I think, it was ludicrous, I'm probably skewed in my views here as PanO isn't exactly bargain basement to begin with, but still.. I'd pay 10-20 more per unit easily if I tried to build a MO equivalent...
If ever a game needed a series of video tutorials, this would be it - I haven't found anything even remotely useful on Youtube so if anyone has any suggestions I'm all ears. IMHO the problem for most noobs like myself is that the rules are sort of all over the place, so I'm bouncing from topic to topic on the wiki trying to piece together how different actions and reactions would play out.
We have our next infinity get together on bank holiday Monday, which is roughly two weeks away, and just based on the advice in this thread alone I can already see it becoming very interesting... ;D
I know this is a massively broad question, but in general are you limiting yourself too much by sticking with one combat group of 10 (11 with lieutenant) orders for your entire force? I've put together lists that have 10, 12 and 14 with a good mix of troops in each; I'll be keen to try each out to see how they play but just wanted to make sure it wasn't something like "you need a minimum of X orders or you'll just get slaughtered" sort of thing...?
If ever a game needed a series of video tutorials, this would be it - I haven't found anything even remotely useful on Youtube so if anyone has any suggestions I'm all ears. IMHO the problem for most noobs like myself is that the rules are sort of all over the place, so I'm bouncing from topic to topic on the wiki trying to piece together how different actions and reactions would play out.
We have our next infinity get together on bank holiday Monday, which is roughly two weeks away, and just based on the advice in this thread alone I can already see it becoming very interesting... ;D
I know this is a massively broad question, but in general are you limiting yourself too much by sticking with one combat group of 10 (11 with lieutenant) orders for your entire force? I've put together lists that have 10, 12 and 14 with a good mix of troops in each; I'll be keen to try each out to see how they play but just wanted to make sure it wasn't something like "you need a minimum of X orders or you'll just get slaughtered" sort of thing...?
No. There was the "rule of thumb" saying "minimum 8 Regular Orders on table in your primary group at game start", but it isn't set in stone either.
Of course - I'm not starting on it regarding ITS missions, where you are said to need a horde of specialists and a legion of cheap Orders to power these - I do not play ITS.
But I've recently made life very difficult to my opponents with HI-based lists of Corregidor and Qapu Khalqi (each with a 5-man Fireteam of Mobile Brigada or Janissaries), and a 10-model (I think) list of Hassassin Bahram (with a 4-man Fireteam of Asawira) under 20x20 mission system. Sure, I wasn't rich in Orders, comapred to my esteemed opponents, but these Fireteams were notoriously hard nuts to crack.
You may ask Stiopa, he played against the Corregidor one (I can't recall who had the opportunity to deal with QK).
The key, however, is the proper distribution of troops between the groups. Especially, if oyur secondary group is going to be very small - this will mean it won't be having many Orders to act on...
Of course - I'm not starting on it regarding ITS missions, where you are said to need a horde of specialists and a legion of cheap Orders to power these - I do not play ITS.
But I've recently made life very difficult to my opponents with HI-based lists of Corregidor and Qapu Khalqi (each with a 5-man Fireteam of Mobile Brigada or Janissaries), and a 10-model (I think) list of Hassassin Bahram (with a 4-man Fireteam of Asawira) under 20x20 mission system. Sure, I wasn't rich in Orders, comapred to my esteemed opponents, but these Fireteams were notoriously hard nuts to crack.
You may ask Stiopa, he played against the Corregidor one (I can't recall who had the opportunity to deal with QK).
The key, however, is the proper distribution of troops between the groups. Especially, if oyur secondary group is going to be very small - this will mean it won't be having many Orders to act on...
They say there will be Heaven and the Fount of Kausar,
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
That there, there will be pure wine and honey and sugar
Fill up the wine cup and place it in my hand
(For) ready cash is better than a thousand credits.
- Rubayyat of Omar Khayyam, but it is a shoddy translation
If you're feeling overwhelmed by the rules, I would suggest only playing vanilla and limiting the equipment options. Best way to come to grips with all the rules. Also, don't play ITS yet.
New ITS got a bit better if I'm not mistaken. More emphasis on combat, less need for a horde.
Yeah, HI links are hard to crack. Properly made elite list can mow down ridiculous amount of enemy units. Haqq HI links are especially resilient, as they can include Doctor Plus or even Akbar Doctor.
Yeah, HI links are hard to crack. Properly made elite list can mow down ridiculous amount of enemy units. Haqq HI links are especially resilient, as they can include Doctor Plus or even Akbar Doctor.
I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but shouldn't we just take the warning labels off everything and let the problem deal with itself?
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