Op: Icestorm rulebook language

[IndyGamer]

I just started reading through my Op: Icestorm rulebook last night. I have to admit I was taken aback by the language in the fluff (3 F-Bombs if my count is right). That stuff does not offend me personally but I question such language in a starter set considering some younger eyes could be reading it. Not sure it was really needed or added anything that justifies it being there. I do question CB on that choice. I think you can be gritty without being offensive at the same time.

[Claudius Sol]

Honestly? Here's how I see it:

The "F word" is known and used by many many many children below the age of 12. I don't think of its usage here as being anywhere near offensive. It's flavorful and fits well in line with the kind of story that follows the black-ops missions of Infinity.

[IndyGamer]

I am sure my 10 year son knows of the word. There certainly are many families out there that would be offended though. Not sure they needed to go there. Poor choice in my opinion.

I am not looking to make something of this. I just find it odd a game company would allow that in a starter set. It could be a kid's first entry to the world of Infinity.

[Skylifter-1000]

Let me quote Marlon Brando (Colonel Kurtz) in Apocalypse now for you:

"We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!"

This is the same. You give a young boy of ten a game about killing people, but if some guy in the fluff uses the "F-word" a lot, that's bad? Are you serious?

[Aikuchi]

So...in a game, set in a universe, wherin it is absolutely normal to abuse combat drugs, terminate wounded enemies, shred ones opponents into blody pieces by monofoliament-wire-mines, blow peoples heads of with armour- piercing explosive ammunition and missions rquire to execute soldiers in front of civilians or the civilians themselves, the use of the F-word is offensive...

Edit: F..., Skylifter got there first...

[Scorch]

The Infinity fluff talks about forced prostitution, substance abuse, psychotic religion, immoral megacorp behaviour, forced labour, pushing children out of an airlock. It's not just 'the game is about killing people!' The entire fluff of Infinity just isn't a story for young children. It is cyberpunk.

[IndyGamer]

I stand corrected. It obviously needed to be there. I am new to the Infinity game and had not read enough of the fluff to see this yet.

[Section9]

To be honest, I think that despite the guaranteed use of profanity in the military, I think that a game needs to be careful on what words are used. The unrestricted use of profanity is something that is not generally desirable, particularly out in the civilian world.

Sure, we all know the current selection of profanity. But Infinity is actually set nearly as far from today as we are from the Napoleonic Wars. Language has changed quite a bit since then, with very few slang words lingering from back then. ("Dude" is actually the only one I know off the top of my head!)

I'd be willing to bet that the USAridanans actually use more Russian profanity (frack**, there's a whole dialect of Russian that's nothing BUT profanity!) than current Americanisms. Look at how much military slang adopted French or Vietnamese words in the 1960s and 1970s. "If we don't di-di most rik-tik, I'm going to go dinky-dao!" (Translation, "if we don't get out of here really quickly, I'm going to go crazy!")

I've caught a friend of mine who only spent ONE tour in Afghanistan cursing in Farsi and Pashtu. Got some really great phrases in there, too...

And then there's the line from my favorite scifi webcomic, which is still recognizable as profanity, but not necessarily as an F-bomb. The phrase involves 'Charlie dancing a/the Foxtrot', which is the NATO phonetics for C and F. So you read a phrase like "This is the biggest Foxtrot since Charlie first danced the Foxtrot" as "this is a fucking gi-fucking-normous fucking cluster-fuck" or "Stop dancing the Foxtrot" as "stop being such a fuckup!"

I need to break out those pages out of the appendix of the Serenity RPG, where they had some dirty Chinese. And my Dirty Japanese book for the JSA equivalents. And find a 'How to speak Mat' book, for when I really need to employ weapons-grade vocabulary.

**Hey, lookie! It's a not-quite F-bomb that we all interpret to mean 'fuck'.

TL;DR: Let's not use current profanity in a scifi setting, let's twist the language a bit like David Drake does with his Hammer's Slammers stories.

[Scorch]

Or curse like a gorram Browncoat!

But serious, I don't mind some profanity. Maybe that's because I am not an American, and we can have that stuff on the telly around here, and Dutch language is notorious for cursing with serious diseases like it's a biscuit. I agree 175 years into the future some slang will have changed unrecognizable.. but I doubt things like fuck are really out of the picture by then.. That word is waaaay to versatile to use (as verb, adjective, exclamation, etc.).

[Skylifter-1000]

Section9: Yes, profanities will be different 175 years into the future, but it takes a lot of skill to make readers understand that. And game fluff usually doesn't have the scope to integrate language changes, so using current language to portray future language is fine - just like the Yu Jing people speak Spanish or English in our respective versions.

The idea that using a word that describes one of the micest things on earth could be bad for children is beyond my understanding, anyway. Or why it is used as a swearword in the first place. But maybe that's because I'm not American. Or maybe because I'm now officially racist. Wait. Argh.

[red harvest]

The only profanity we need in the future is "Smeg."

Bear in mind that current English profanities have been around for 500 years or more, and probably are not going away anytime soon. Especially since everybody else is adopting them too... New ones come and new ones go, but the classics have withstand the test of time. It's Fokken in Dutch, no?

[Scorch]

It's Fokken in Dutch, no?

Yeah, the words are probably related, although 'fokken' means breeding (like dogs, livestock), not fornicating. To the letter we'd say 'neuken', which sounds as dirty as it looks, but it isn't used in the versatile context like English language uses 'fuck'. The word closest to it is 'kut' which translates to 'cunt'. That's a really versatile word in Dutch.

[Claudius Sol]

It's Fokken in Dutch, no?

Yeah, the words are probably related, although 'fokken' means breeding (like dogs, livestock), not fornicating. To the letter we'd say 'neuken', which sounds as dirty as it looks, but it isn't used in the versatile context like English language uses 'fuck'. The word closest to it is 'kut' which translates to 'cunt'. That's a really versatile word in Dutch.

Purely because of scientific curiosity, how would you pronounce this "kut"?

[Scorch]

Purely because of scientific curiosity, how would you pronounce this "kut"?

Similar like cut from cutting. But more gutteral.

[Hordshyrd]

Ahhh, good to see how a discussion on the morality of swearing in a rulebook turns into a linguistic swear trade.

If I may put in my two cents, and I don't see anyone trying to stop me, I would partly agree with the OP that I don't think the profanity has a place in the rulebook, particularly not the quickstart rules. The rules should be kept clear of the fluff to avoid confusion, and professionally worded to increase understanding. The rules, seeing as they are available free to everyone, should be appropriate for everyone.

Where as the fluff, being as it is only available if purchased(mostly), should be as filthy and dirty as they want it to be. I for one find the description of the Pupniks to be one of the funniest and most entertaining things I've ever read in a unit profile.

But really, as much as we may enjoy it, it may be better to keep this sort of fun out of the rules.

[Claudius Sol]

Operation Icestorm is not a "free" or "quickstart" rulebook. It is a bought component of a starter set that is chock full of story. The great feel and atmosphere created by the narrative in Icestorm is partly what's been making my demos with it so successful. I can tell a cinematic narrative.

Just think of it as a PG-13 movie.

[MarcoSkoll]

Or curse like a gorram Browncoat!

I think shows like Firefly and Battlestar Galactica took the smart approach to the problem. Fake, archaic or foreign swearing allow for a realistic quantity of profanity, and good context can sell its in-universe intensity just as well as using a genuine swear word, I feel.

In the modern day, I hear enough of the S-, F- and C- words, either from people I know or from strangers voicing them at some volume in public, that they've often got next to no impact. On the other hand, I can swear with plenty of punch without descending into those parts of my vocabulary - and if I do thus descend, it really can shock even friends who use the words copiously.

If you can't make "lesser" or even fake swear words sound intense in context, then you're just not very good at swearing.

[chromedog]

I think the language usage is acceptable.

I don't think many wargames themselves are suitable for many children under 12.

[chromedog]

It's Fokken in Dutch, no?

Yeah, the words are probably related, although 'fokken' means breeding (like dogs, livestock), not fornicating. To the letter we'd say 'neuken', which sounds as dirty as it looks, but it isn't used in the versatile context like English language uses 'fuck'. The word closest to it is 'kut' which translates to 'cunt'. That's a really versatile word in Dutch.

Neuken is probably the root (snigger) for the colloquialism of "nookie".

Like biscuit and cookie come from other words. Kuchen, "twice cooked" (french).

[Hordshyrd]

is the f-word PG13? I thought you had to be TforTeen rated before you could start slipping those in.

I agree with the sentiment about firefly and BSG though. Except for the fact that frak was used as a 1 to 1 trade off for the f-word. I liked it as a random expletive but when they actually applied it to sex in the same way as the f-word, I lost interest.

[Scorch]

It's Fokken in Dutch, no?

Yeah, the words are probably related, although 'fokken' means breeding (like dogs, livestock), not fornicating. To the letter we'd say 'neuken', which sounds as dirty as it looks, but it isn't used in the versatile context like English language uses 'fuck'. The word closest to it is 'kut' which translates to 'cunt'. That's a really versatile word in Dutch.

Neuken is probably the root (snigger) for the colloquialism of "nookie".

Like biscuit and cookie come from other words. Kuchen, "twice cooked" (french).

I did it all for the nookie
C'mon
The nookie
C'mon
So you can take that cookie

By Limp Bizkit

[Carlos13th]

is the f-word PG13? I thought you had to be TforTeen rated before you could start slipping those in.

I agree with the sentiment about firefly and BSG though. Except for the fact that frak was used as a 1 to 1 trade off for the f-word. I liked it as a random expletive but when they actually applied it to sex in the same way as the f-word, I lost interest.

I believe you get a certain number or fucks per movie before it's no longer pg-13. It may be a single one.

[Section9]

Section9: Yes, profanities will be different 175 years into the future, but it takes a lot of skill to make readers understand that.

Have you read any of the Hammer's Slammers stories? The most common profanity in those is "Via", which is used about like "Good Lord!" or "God!"

Or curse like a gorram Browncoat!

I think shows like Firefly and Battlestar Galactica took the smart approach to the problem. Fake, archaic or foreign swearing allow for a realistic quantity of profanity, and good context can sell its in-universe intensity just as well as using a genuine swear word, I feel.

Exactly. And actually, replacing modern profanity with something else can help fill in some of the background of your universe. In the Hammer's Slammers universe, the Way of God is the single most popular religion, which is why 'Via' is used so much.

If you can't make "lesser" or even fake swear words sound intense in context, then you're just not very good at swearing.

I've been trying to de-profanitize my commonly-used language. "In the name of all that is holy" can be made to carry quite a punch. So does "waste of oxygen". In fact, if you hear me use 'waste of oxygen', you need to be leaving. Things are about to get extremely ugly.

[Redwulfe]

I do't mind the use of cursing in my fluff so long as it fits realistically into what is being said. In the case of the introductory rules in the battle pack it seems to flow just fine. As far as whether it should be in a starter pack I would have to say no for most but OK for infinity. The reason is that infinity is not marketed for children it is market for young adults and up. Even the battle pack itself says it is not for those under 14. By 14 years of age the f-bomb rarely would faze me and I have not grown up in the current generation where there is much much worse things you are exposed to. A parent should know that this is a violent game set in the future and should not buy it for there 10 or 12 year olds and those parents that would be highly offended by the use of the f-bomb in a product for there 14+ child would probably have a problem with the violence that is a war game in the first place.

Red

[chromedog]

And 'cop' is pretty much the other one. "The indig arty in't worth cop" is pretty much "The locals' artillery ain't worth shit".
I've been reading the Slammers since the 80s.

[Hordshyrd]

I think Redwulfe has hit the nail right on the head. The OP was complaining that the language in the rulebook was not appropriate for his children or other 12 year olds, but if it says 14 and up right on the box than that means that your warned right on the box, probably before it's ever bought or opened that it may not be appropriate. Unless 12 year olds these days are running around with hundreds of dollars to spend, but back in my day....

[MarcoSkoll]

Exactly. And actually, replacing modern profanity with something else can help fill in some of the background of your universe.

Indeed - I'd considered making that point myself.

It actually shows up a lot in my WH40K RPGing - my characters are mostly from different worlds or at least different parts of those worlds, so they all get their own individual dialects and profanities of choice - often based on real world dialects, which helps keep it somewhat more grounded than just throwing in a tonne of completely new and made up terms that nobody would be able to understand.

It does help create individual cultures far better than all the characters just going eff-this and eff-that all the time. I mean, it'd be interesting to see dialectal variations between Bakunin and Corregidor... although that might be a little tough when trying to produce a game in several different languages.