Using other manufacturers

[Darnok]

Since I don't think it would have a long live on the CB forums, I'd put this question up over here: do you use models from other manufacturers in your Infinity games, or do you know somebody who does? And what is your opinion on this matter?

In my case it's about the CA Pretas/Hungries. I like the concept, both from a background and gameplay point of view. But I find the official models to be quite fugly. And they aren't exactly cheap either, moneywise. The alternative I have in mind are some Tyranid models: either the Space Hulk Symbionts (from the 2009 version) or Hormagaunts. I have lots of both, and they would do the job just fine. It's all theoretical at the moment though, and I'm more interested to hear some opinions about it right now.

[Section9]

I have some alternate manufacturers, too. Some Hasslefree troops (Motoko and Batou), plus the PVC Tachikomas for my "Kyuuan Kouan" (Public Security Section 9) collection, some Statuesque girls for Metros/Volunteers/equivalent.

Most of my non-Infinity minis are actually to use as civilians.

I would not expect anyone to complain about not using Infinity minis in a friendly game. Sure, it won't fly at ITS tournaments, but that's ITS.

You can also check out the Koralon or Kryomek models from Scotia-Grendel.

http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Products/i ... _218_60_77
http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Products/i ... _218_59_68
http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Products/i ... _3_113_119

I actually like the original Hungries better than the new ones, but the originals (2 per box on a 40mm base) were obscenely expensive for 5pt models...

[CoveredInFish]

I have an "Army" of statuesque girls, that i considered to use as infinity-proxies, but I haven't don't that yet.

Somehow I don't like playing with models that don't fit exactly to the game values. I'm not against it, but it doesn't feel good to me.

[Melvin McSnatch]

I'm 100 percent fine with someone using proxies that are clearly represented and appropriately scaled.

[Darnok]

I actually like the original Hungries better than the new ones, but the originals (2 per box on a 40mm base) were obscenely expensive for 5pt models...

Same here. The original models were better in my opinion. While the new ones have more details, they also have horrible poses - it's not a breakdance competition, dammit! - and the price is still an issue.

[Hero of Man]

I have no issue with people using proxies, especially when they don't like the sculpt for whatever reason. I've been known to do it from time to time, especially with Hasslefree.

[Section9]

Yes, Hasslefree and Statuesque are great sources of minis that are visually compatible with Infinity. Similar sculpting style, similar fineness of details.

Anima Tactics are usable for headswaps (say, off the various Agent minis), but tend to be taller overall. Soda Pop minis are looking to be similarly usable, as long as you don't mind barely-clad and excessively curvy females.

Empress moderns are also good for Ariadnan troops.

What is really lacking is scifi civilians.

[Hero of Man]

Yeah, most 'civilians' are still wielding weapons in most catalogues. Even less common than unarmed civilians is unarmed male civilians. I've a decent collection of girls, but only like a couple of men, who are at best questionably scifi; A Morrocan Bazaar Merchant, for example, going for old world charm on Bourak.

[MARC C]

Going against the grain. I'm against proxies in general.
The only time I will allow them is when someone is starting out or if the model doesn't exist. (even then I would prefer the person use an Infinity model as a stand in).
CB is not GW they don't deserve that kind of treatment.

Don't go flame war against me. I won't change my mind on the issue. ;-)

[Arachas]

Why would you even want to proxy when CB makes such beautiful miniatures!

[Darnok]

Going against the grain. I'm against proxies in general.
The only time I will allow them is when someone is starting out or if the model doesn't exist. (even then I would prefer the person use an Infinity model as a stand in).
CB is not GW they don't deserve that kind of treatment.

Don't go flame war against me. I won't change my mind on the issue. ;-)

Your opinion is as valid as everybody elses. IF we ever meet and IF we play Infinity and IF I would want to field a MAF with my proxied Pretas - only THEN we'd have a problem. That's a lot of "if"s.

As for "beautiful"... that's a matter of opinion. I find the Prets to be pretty dreadful. I'd rather play with proxies than not at all.

It's quite an academic question for me at the moment though, since I have neither the time nor the funds for a MAF army anyway.

[Hero of Man]

"Inflammatory statement comparing other side of discussion to thieves/comparable scum, don't flame back"

[Section9]

Why would you even want to proxy when CB makes such beautiful miniatures!

Either 1) I'm fielding Public Security Section 9, with specific models for the Major and Batou from Hasslefree, PVC Tachikomas, and converted CB models for everyone else; or 2) I don't want to field multiples of the same model, say, using the Statuesque girls as Metros or Moderators/Securitate.

[Mob of Blondes]

3) Replace some poses (Agema Marksman), cloth styles (females...) or concepts (motocross chopper "two wheel trike"?) with more combat oriented ones.

[ElectricPaladin]

To be honest, I get a little annoyed when people proxy in the following cases:

1) The game we are playing is still being made by a relatively small company, and the game itself is still trying to dig itself a niche.
2) The models are reasonably priced and well made.
3) The game is made by a company that makes most of its profits of the sales of miniatures (ie. the rules are inexpensive or free).

All of which apply to Infinity.

It's not a matter of right and wrong, or deserves or doesn't deserve. It's just... that's how companies die, you know? It's also how prices go up. I don't really care what you buy or play with, except that if your fun with your proxied third party miniatures is has the potential to impact my fun with CB's minis (by driving the company out of business or pushing up prices) then you can't expect me to be totally neutral on the topic.

I also wouldn't be a jerk, I'd just have the game with you, etc etc. There's no reason not to be civil.

[ski2060]

There is a huge amount of profiles that do not have miniatures. My faction, Ariadna, has a stupid amount of profiles without miniatures. Or the miniature sucks. Thankfully they seem to be adding to the amount of resculpts and new minis. They really need to make minis for each profile, or add a weapon/option sprue to simple minis to tailor them for different profiles.

[IJW Wartrader]

Off the top of my head, Ariadna only had ten or so loadouts missing until the Spetsnaz added three extras.

[ski2060]

Care to name them? I don't see a single FO model in any troop profile. Nothing with a Laser Designator or Binoculars on them. Only one 5th Minutement model out of 7 or 8 profiles.

Sorry, not to sound snarky. I just see a lot of profiles that can be filled with models that are not currently in the Infinity line up. They are improving and adding new models, but still. All the profiles should have a model for them, or accessible weapons/gear to model onto existing models to replicate those profiles.

Sure.. any basic trooper for a troop line can be used most of the time... but it's still proxying a model for a profile.

[IJW Wartrader]

FOs (and Paramedics for that matter) don't get distinct sculpts. In the same way, X-Visors and camo often aren't modelled if the unit has them as an option. So the nine Minutemen loadouts comes down to three distinct models, maybe four if you have a different one for an AP Rifle.

[ski2060]

The point is that some people would like to use models that show those options, and there are good models out there. I really don't like several of the Ariadna models, and plan to play them using other models unless and until CB makes new sculpts that are better looking.

And why don't they get distinct sculpts? Each model is listed as it's profile on the blister/box that CB packages them in.
It shouldn't be hard to make distinct sculpts, or, easily, a sprue blister with all the options to make any of the profiles that don't have models. Like alternate weapons, Visors, MedKits, Laser Designators.

[IJW Wartrader]

You'd have to ask CB why they don't do distinct sculpts for FOs etc. but it's presumably because there are already too many SKUs for retailers to want to hold the range. Going by previous statements you're never likely to see bits packs either.

[Hero of Man]

To be honest, I get a little annoyed when people proxy in the following cases:

1) The game we are playing is still being made by a relatively small company, and the game itself is still trying to dig itself a niche.
2) The models are reasonably priced and well made.
3) The game is made by a company that makes most of its profits of the sales of miniatures (ie. the rules are inexpensive or free).

All of which apply to Infinity.

Fair points, but it seems to make a pretty big assumption; that being that people are using an ENTIRE proxy army, which I've yet to see happen(though I don't entirely discount the possibility), rather than a few proxies here and there. This also seems to equate us to somehow wronging Corvus Belli, who have provided their ruleset for free. I can understand where you're coming from there, though I think its stone age that any company do this any other way in the first place; but that's an entirely different discussion.

When it comes to 'cheating' CB out of a sale, consider this; if I dislike a sculpt, I'm not going to buy it. That's just the plain and simple truth of it; some models are of such poor quality(old Uxia, Minuteman, etc) that they lower the tone of the entire army. Others might just not be aesthetically pleasing to me at all, or there might just be a model I really love that fits the aesthetic perfectly for me. In the end, I still bought most of my army from CB.... and now that I'm collecting 4, soon to be 5 armies, I'd say CB is getting a bargain.

Lastly, I think having issues with people who proxy a few models is more detrimental to the hobby in general, really; everyone is just trying to have fun. I’d rather someone’s army be a reflection of the personality, narrative, and style of the person than be 100% Official Grade A Spanish Pewter. Then again, I’m a roleplayer at heart, so these things take priority for me. Just my two cent rant.

[Section9]

Care to name them? I don't see a single FO model in any troop profile. Nothing with a Laser Designator or Binoculars on them. Only one 5th Minutement model out of 7 or 8 profiles.

FO and paramedic options have never been modeled, and that's across all factions. I'm not sure Minelayer options have been specifically modeled, either.

but that means EVERY model is/can be the FO or Medic.

Granted, I have a couple of the old Zanshi that are getting converted to FO or Medic (and two more old zanshi getting converted to Keisotsu FO and medics), but that's because I like having a dedicated model (and had some spare old Zanshi to abuse).

CB has made a lot of money off me, as I have dang near full AVAs (or more) of almost every single model for Yu Jing. FFS, I have 10 of the basic REMs! I've bought lots of models with the intention of swapping arms/weapons around. I think I 'only' have 2 of each Tiger profile, and '3' with the basic combiflamer (two guys and Ko Dali). I 'need' to get another Tiger shottie to convert into a basic Tigress combiflamer...

I'm pretty sure Carlos isn't going to be butthurt about my using Hasslefree, Statuesque, or Empress for some USAriadnans.

[chromedog]

Why would you even want to proxy when CB makes such beautiful miniatures!

Because not all of their minis are things I WANT in my collection. Your sense of aesthetics and mine probably differ enough - and NO miniatures manufacturer has a range where I will want ALL of them - yet ALL have at least ONE model I DO want. A model I don't want is a sale they aren't getting anyway.

I loathe anthros, for example (aka furries. Cat-people and so on) and will ne'er defile my collection with any of that flamer-bait.

[Pacific]

Yeah, most 'civilians' are still wielding weapons in most catalogues. Even less common than unarmed civilians is unarmed male civilians. I've a decent collection of girls, but only like a couple of men, who are at best questionably scifi; A Morrocan Bazaar Merchant, for example, going for old world charm on Bourak.

I'm using some of Antenocitti's Workshop GoT range to represent local police force mininatures. I use some of the standard 'police' miniatures for a low-key civilian force, and their 'GoT' range for an armed response unit - if you have someone willing to act as a 3rd player/GM, it's great fun to have a kind of 'GTA police stars' style system where things escalate in the game and the players suddenly have another thing to worry about.

So, I think depending on how you think about expanding the game and narrative, there is a lot of room for using other company's mininatures outside the standard confines of the game.

[Darnok]

To be honest, I get a little annoyed when people proxy in the following cases:

1) The game we are playing is still being made by a relatively small company, and the game itself is still trying to dig itself a niche.
2) The models are reasonably priced and well made.
3) The game is made by a company that makes most of its profits of the sales of miniatures (ie. the rules are inexpensive or free).

All of which apply to Infinity.

I'm sure I get something the wrong way, so sorry for that. But to me this comes across as if I owe CB something by them simply providing a product. I do not.

CB produces a range of models, and a ruleset to use them in a game. They provide a way to get the rules for free. But it remains an offer, nothing more. If I like a model enough to buy it, good for CB, good for me. But why should I buy something I don't like the look of, or which I think is too expensive? CB producing a model has no implication whatsoever whether I should buy it or not.

Please don't get me wrong: I like Infinity as a ruleset, I like the background, and I like most of the model range. I bought the books (because I really like the additional content, and because I prefer having paper in my hand over a PC screen), and I have a growing collection of models. But rather than playing with models I don't like, or not playing a certain faction or list at all, I prefer to proxy. And CB actually wins with this approach: they get 100% sales on maybe 80% of the models I would need, instead of 0% sales of 100% of the models.

[ElectricPaladin]

To be honest, I get a little annoyed when people proxy in the following cases:

1) The game we are playing is still being made by a relatively small company, and the game itself is still trying to dig itself a niche.
2) The models are reasonably priced and well made.
3) The game is made by a company that makes most of its profits of the sales of miniatures (ie. the rules are inexpensive or free).

All of which apply to Infinity.

I'm sure I get something the wrong way, so sorry for that. But to me this comes across as if I owe CB something by them simply providing a product. I do not.

CB produces a range of models, and a ruleset to use them in a game. They provide a way to get the rules for free. But it remains an offer, nothing more. If I like a model enough to buy it, good for CB, good for me. But why should I buy something I don't like the look of, or which I think is too expensive? CB producing a model has no implication whatsoever whether I should buy it or not.

Please don't get me wrong: I like Infinity as a ruleset, I like the background, and I like most of the model range. I bought the books (because I really like the additional content, and because I prefer having paper in my hand over a PC screen), and I have a growing collection of models. But rather than playing with models I don't like, or not playing a certain faction or list at all, I prefer to proxy. And CB actually wins with this approach: they get 100% sales on maybe 80% of the models I would need, instead of 0% sales of 100% of the models.

No, no. You don't owe CB anything. I'm concerned because I think you're doing harm to me by driving up prices and endangering the game I enjoy. You don't owe CB anything they can't earn. I am bothered because I see how using third party miniatures can harm the game environment that I have to play in.

It's a subtle difference, but important.

And look, I get that it's not a super big deal. It's not like you buying a couple of third party miniatures is going to raise prices 200% today or put CB out of business by the end of the quarter. It's just that if everyone bought third party minis, across the board, then those things might happen (more gradually, of course). So, it bothers me and I won't do it. I can't stop you, but while I will be civil to you if we should ever play together, I'm not going to pretend it doesn't bother me if someone asks for my opinion.

[Darnok]

And look, I get that it's not a super big deal. It's not like you buying a couple of third party miniatures is going to raise prices 200% today or put CB out of business by the end of the quarter. It's just that if everyone bought third party minis, across the board, then those things might happen (more gradually, of course). So, it bothers me and I won't do it. I can't stop you, but while I will be civil to you if we should ever play together, I'm not going to pretend it doesn't bother me if someone asks for my opinion.

Try to see it like this: if I play a MAF with some proxied Pretas, I'll (hopefully) add good games to my local gaming pool. That way I'll (again: hopefully) encourage new gamers to try Infinity as a game, and CB as their model supplier. I will ALWAYS say something like "see, I'll use some proxies, because [reasons], but CB offers a perfectly fine model option of their own: please check it out, you might like it more than what I used to proxy them with".

And if I ever come across a person who - for whatever reasons - is unhappy with proxies, I still have the option to use my YuJing or Nomad forces. In a social hobby like wargaming I'd always prefer the way of mutual consent.*


* ... the only exception to this I can think of would be a tournament where the organiser was fine with proxies, a specific opponent would be not though. I don't know, it might be that opponnents fault to play in that tournament then. In casual gaming it's not something that should come up at all for me though. You know, talking pre-game and stuff, respect for the other guy/gal and things...

[Pacific]

I think CB miniatures are perhaps less likely than any other company's to be replaced by proxies - if one considers the quality and proportions of their sculpting, and the lack of other companies out there doing similar-style sculpts that 'fit' within that universe.

So, I don't think there is any danger of them becoming commonplace like they are in other games - a lot of the time you see it in Warhammer fantasy for something like human armies (bretonnians etc. someone will always use Perry historical miniatures because they are better, cheaper and fit the theme), or 15mm world war 2, which are based on historical and common ideas that are easily made by other manufacturers, and which Battlefront/Flames of War really need to worry about.

[Spears]

If they were modified in some way and appropriately painted I wouldn't be too fussed by tyranid hungries. An individual model here and there for flavour could be okay, I would rather see proxies from within the Cb range but more down to aesthetic than perceived financial impact on the company.