Heavy Gear price DE-crease

[Section9]

The Dream Pod 9 exos are sculpted with great precision, for the size, but, in the end, they look like toys to me. They don't have character, they can't encute fear...

Well, as big as a Pathfinder or other 'normal' exo is, they'd be nigh-impractical for gaming in any scale over 1/300. I mean, the Pathfinder is 18m tall or thereabouts per fluff, so a "15mm scale" (1/100 scale) version is 18cm (seven inches) tall!!!

Cool for display purposes (I have a couple plastic Gundam models that size), but gaming?!? Maybe if you made a personal-scale OGRE game, where there was one unstoppable monsterbot chasing infantry in a burned-out city...

But two on the same tabletop?!? No way in hell.

[BrandonKF]

I did HG in the 90's. Still have a bunch of the original models that were in a larger scale and were much nicer.

Wish I'd had the $$ to get those back then. I might still have a Cheetah Paratrooper somewhere...

Fast forward to three years ago [...] The rules have changed twice since that time

And that's been the killer. DP9 has horribly screwed the pooch on their rules repeatedly. I'm hoping that this new version (what the hell are we on for Blitz, v3 now?) will actually be tight.

5th Edition, my naval brother.

But this one is sticking.

Here is the link to the Beta on DrivethroughRPG.com.


http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/1 ... Beta-Rules

Here is the development forum:

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showforum=66

I am Kris_Din over there.

So, questions about the rules sticking around or scale changes?

Dave, the line developer, has said the scale remains 12mm.

The rules will be finalized over the next year, but new playtesters are more than welcome.

The new ruleset takes a lot more simple approach but keeps depth. I have been doing a lot of promoting, because you know me, Gearhead. But hey. ^_^

[Hero of Man]

The Dream Pod 9 exos are sculpted with great precision, for the size, but, in the end, they look like toys to me. They don't have character, they can't encute fear...

Well, as big as a Pathfinder or other 'normal' exo is, they'd be nigh-impractical for gaming in any scale over 1/300. I mean, the Pathfinder is 18m tall or thereabouts per fluff, so a "15mm scale" (1/100 scale) version is 18cm (seven inches) tall!!!

Cool for display purposes (I have a couple plastic Gundam models that size), but gaming?!? Maybe if you made a personal-scale OGRE game, where there was one unstoppable monsterbot chasing infantry in a burned-out city...

But two on the same tabletop?!? No way in hell.

I really don't see a problem with that size increase, honestly. Then again, I have a Cygnar Stormwall on my Desk who occasionally throws down with a Khador Conquest.

[solkan]

The Dream Pod 9 exos are sculpted with great precision, for the size, but, in the end, they look like toys to me. They don't have character, they can't encute fear...

Well, as big as a Pathfinder or other 'normal' exo is, they'd be nigh-impractical for gaming in any scale over 1/300. I mean, the Pathfinder is 18m tall or thereabouts per fluff, so a "15mm scale" (1/100 scale) version is 18cm (seven inches) tall!!!

Cool for display purposes (I have a couple plastic Gundam models that size), but gaming?!? Maybe if you made a personal-scale OGRE game, where there was one unstoppable monsterbot chasing infantry in a burned-out city...

But two on the same tabletop?!? No way in hell.

I really don't see a problem with that size increase, honestly. Then again, I have a Cygnar Stormwall on my Desk who occasionally throws down with a Khador Conquest.

Oh, sure. But that's made plausible by magic and/or alchemy failures.

Now put that 15cm to 30cm tall mecha down on the four by six table without complaining that the giant robot terrorizing the city has weapons that can't shoot further than it can punch. In the future.

[Hero of Man]

I don't see the problem when the OTHER 15cm to 30cm tall mecha is lobbing energy dodge balls right back at him, deflecting beam cannons with his gigashield.

Then again, I like big mechs and I cannot lie.

[BrandonKF]

Oh Lord... do not get that song stuck in my head please!!!

"Too late!"

Arrrrggghhh! Out, out, out with you song! *faceplants brick wall*

*pulls head back and sighs*

Blessed silence....

Anyway, on topic, Arkrite Press already has an announcement concerning larger scales for Heavy Gear.

http://arkritepress.com/2014/09/19/arkana-returns/

[solkan]

I don't see the problem when the OTHER 15cm to 30cm tall mecha is lobbing energy dodge balls right back at him, deflecting beam cannons with his gigashield.

Then again, I like big mechs and I cannot lie.

The problem is that the scale vs. available physical play area causes everything to break down.

At 1/60 scale, the green Zaku II on one side of my living room should have range to shoot at all of my Warmachine and Infinity models on the other side of the room. At that scale, those things are small spacecraft with spacecraft weaponry, after all, and several battles in the series are set in areas where you'd need to use at least a 10 by 10 foot table for the scenes involving "close" combat, without even getting into the larger encounter.

If you want want a game where giant robots are playing paintball or throwing bean bag bombs at each other, then 15-30 cm mecha on a four by six table might be a fun game.

Otherwise, the problem is that at 1/60 scale, all you're getting on the table is the close combat portion of the encounter. Even if you have something neat like Drop Zone Commander's "Your effective range is determined by what you're shooting at" mechanic, the scale differentials get too big to be reasonable.

Disclaimer: I've purchased several of the huge Privateer Press models for use as weapons of mass destruction in super hero games. Because "It's super heroes" is strong enough to overcome the scaling problems for me.

[Hero of Man]

I'm not seeing how action figure sized mecha(5.9 inches tall) are somehow considered massive. Their table foot print is hardly bigger than anything else you can fit on a 50mm base. The comparison to colossals is that four of them on the table never really made the game feel OMG TOO HUGE to me, and they're way huger than the 1/144th scale kits and such.

What I'm saying is, 5.9 inches tall isn't that big.

...

You Zeon brothers can't deny.

[Section9]

I'm not seeing how action figure sized mecha(5.9 inches tall) are somehow considered massive. Their table foot print is hardly bigger than anything else you can fit on a 50mm base. The comparison to colossals is that four of them on the table never really made the game feel OMG TOO HUGE to me, and they're way huger than the 1/144th scale kits and such.

And colossals throw paintballs and beanbags at each other. Gun ranges in WarmaHordes are obscenely compressed compared to the figure scale. Even a muzzle loading smoothbore cannon can reach out 1000 yards, rifled guns out to 3500yds. Infantry smoothbore weapons can reach ~100 yards, and rifled guns can reach out to a mile (there really is a confirmed kill from a Sharps buffalo gun at ~1700 yards!), though a more reasonable infantry shooting range is ~300 yards.

The ranges in WarmaHordes work for close combat, but they're completely out of whack for ranged combat. I don't care how strong a Warjack is, it should not be able to throw a person the shooting range of a rifle.

A 20mm cannon like the one carried by the Hunter Gear has a range of better than 1000m, and a 4x6 table in 1/60 is ~80x120m (ok 80x120yards for the excessively picky).

Then again, I like big mechs and I cannot lie.

You Zeon brothers can't deny.

When a mech walks in with an overwhelming pace
and a big gun in your face
you get sprung,

Hi, I'm Section9 and I'm a mechaholic.

[solkan]

I'm not seeing how action figure sized mecha(5.9 inches tall) are somehow considered massive. Their table foot print is hardly bigger than anything else you can fit on a 50mm base. The comparison to colossals is that four of them on the table never really made the game feel OMG TOO HUGE to me, and they're way huger than the 1/144th scale kits and such.

What I'm saying is, 5.9 inches tall isn't that big.

The six inch tall models (on 120mm bases) in Warmachine that have guns that shoot six to twelve inches. The Stormclad can pick up a four inch tall model like the Sentinel and throw that model further than its weapons (or the weapons on the model that it's throwing, for that matter) can fire.

It's not the model height that's the problem. It's the ratio between the height (and width) of the model and the effective ranges of its weapons that is the problem.

The problem is that in scale, you're looking at either "So we just spent an hour rolling dice to determine what happened in five seconds of combat..." or you're looking at six inch tall models that can shoot at each other from opposite corners of your four by six table and that (at cautious speeds) would move at least a foot or more each turn and have no problem crossing that six foot wide play area at full speed.

Because that's what they're shown doing in the shows. Isn't recreating that the point of using these cool toys?

[Hero of Man]

I don't see how you let things like these super 'realistic' details stop you from having fun with "big" stompy robots is all. A maximum range does not necessarily mean its the best engagement range for all weaponry, and terrain can also be a factor; hard to shoot the other mech when he's crouched behind a mesa or a civilian building you're not allowed to light up. Plus even if you did start out shooting at each other across the board, a lot of mecha shows I watch involve lots of high speed dodging, closing the distance for melee exchanges, etc.

Look, I know we're not going to convince each other one way or another, but at least understand my intent; I don't give a flying F about super technical details of how I get to use a 5.9inch tall robot on the tabletop, but I really WANT to use a 5.9inch tall robot on the tabletop. Telling me I can't because Real World Reasons isn't going to stop me from wanting to play with the toys I want to play with, and I'm sure there is some kinda rule set that would allow this with minimal fuss. I guess wanting that from the old or current DP9 rulesets isn't ideal and where you're coming from, and I apologize; I'm meaning In General, which is off topic.

So no hard feelings or anything folks, I just want my 5.9inch tall robots in games, geeze.

[solkan]

I'll agree to that cessation of fire. Let's not let our common love of giant robot fighting divide us.

It's entirely possible that there's a good ruleset for playing mecha combat with six inch tall robots. My copy of Mechadrome is supposed to show up sometime later today, and they might have gotten the right balance for speed and weapon ranges for arena combat at that scale.

There was a fan-written conversion of the Jedi dueling game where they replaced the jedi with mobile suits that was really fun. They were playing with little card stock tokens on these little boards, so it wouldn't really change anything to play with full size models on tables of terrain. I mean, it would look totally awesome, but the size change wouldn't have much impact on the game mechanics.

But Heavy Gear's current system isn't adjusted to that model size to board size ratio. There'd be so much you'd have to adjust, and you'd probably end up changing enough things that you wouldn't really have something recognizable as Blitz any more.

[BrandonKF]

You mean Silhouette rules?

[Section9]

It's entirely possible that there's a good ruleset for playing mecha combat with six inch tall robots. My copy of Mechadrome is supposed to show up sometime later today, and they might have gotten the right balance for speed and weapon ranges for arena combat at that scale.

You could also check out Mobile Soldier In Action. It's a high-detail mecha pilot game, where the various parts of your mecha have different hit points.

But Heavy Gear's current system isn't adjusted to that model size to board size ratio. There'd be so much you'd have to adjust, and you'd probably end up changing enough things that you wouldn't really have something recognizable as Blitz any more.

HG1 (or HGTactical) was hex-based and assumes 50m hexes for mecha, for a ground scale of 1/1968 and a vehicle scale of 1/87 (or 1/144 later on). But it still gave smaller guns a shorter range than bigger guns.

You can really see the fun if/when you look at the Robotech Illustrated website, where there's commentary about the horribly short ranges attributed to known, existing weapons like a .50cal MG fitted to the Tomahawk (Warhammer in BT):

Armament

2 x Mauser (Mauler) PBG-11 liquid-cooled electrically-charged heavy1 particle beam guns mounted on the arms.2,3 Targeting sensor mounted in the base of each cannon. Both cannons can be aimed and fired independently.2,3 Maximum effective range of 32 km.5
2 x Remington (Remmington) M-89 12.7mm (.50 Caliber) air-cooled machine guns, mounted on the left and right sides of the head.1,2 Fire-linked, belt fed with a range of 975 meters5 (.50 BMG range was typically 1800 meters in the M2HB Machine Gun) and ammunition supply of 800 rounds of .50BMG SLAP.5
2 x Astra TZ-III gun clusters.1,2,3 Self contained with ammunition and fire-control systems.5
1 x 14.5mm5 light laser1,2,3 with a range of 1,280 meters.5
1 x 25 mm auto-cannon,1,2,3 firing light explosive armor piercing (LEAP) ammunition with a range of 600 meters5 (the 25mm Bushmaster on the M2 Bradley, for example, has an effective range of 3000 meters), ammunition supply of 100 rounds.5
1 x 180 mm direct fire mortar, 1,2,3 range 457 meters, payload of 15 rounds of various warhead types.5
1 x flamethrower, 1,2,3 range 182 meters.5
2 x Bofors AB (Bifors)2,3 MDS-L-12 missile launchers in the shoulders, each capable of carrying 12 short range (8 km)5 self-guided anti-mecha missiles1,2
1 x Oerlikon (Erlikon)2,3 MDS-M-6 “Six Pack”5 missile launcher on the outboard right shoulder, carrying 6 short range (8 km)5 anti-aircraft missiles1,2
2 x RDS-25 smoke grenade ejectors on each hip1

Pardon the mega-quote, but a Tomahawk has a crapton of weapons on it!

Strikethroughs in original, bold+italics my emphasis.