Further Data-Sphere Painting Campaigns

[Claudius Sol]

Hey guys,

I was wondering if people were still interested in these painting campaigns...
Before I start up the next one and put in a lot of effort, I've been noticing a rather downward trend in participation. Are they not exciting enough? Is there just a general lack of interest?

What can I do to interest you in participating?

Thanks for your feedback.

[Mob of Blondes]

http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topi ... -magazine/ announce it there when a new round starts?

[Claudius Sol]

I can certainly do that, MoB.

[ARCangel]

Could also be the theme. Sometimes it might not line up with what people are working on. A little more publicity, like MoB suggested, wouldn't hurt either.

[H1ghlander]

ARCangel has a valid point regarding theme, but I think there are two more deep-rooted compounding factors.
First is the way prizes get allocated to the best painted model. With professional painters like Nazroth, Shizune, etc., there is little incentive to post what has been painted, as there is little chance of actually winning. In this case it's easier just to paint on your own, without posting pictures.
Second is the fact that professional painters frequent this forum, and their results can be intimidating to others.

My suggestion would be to change the prizes to random selection (three equal prizes), but also try to engage the professional painters to provide feedback to help those who have participated. When submitting pictures, participants would provide techniques they used, along with the effect they wanted to achieve, and ask what they could do different or better to get that effect.
Example; for my Zu Yong submission, I would say something like, "Attempted to build up lighting in glazes, but had issues creating thin enough layers to mask borders. Tried to accomplish NMM-lite." Then at the end of the campaign I would still have a chance of getting a prize based on the number of participants.

[ARCangel]

Building off of that we could also have different levels. A professionals competition that happens less often but has people like Naz and Shizune in it, and a "beginners league" sort of thing. Like H1ghlander said, it can be really intimidating going up against the big guys. Its like having the local minor league team going up against the Yankees. I'm confused by what you mean by random selection withe prizes though, H1ghlander.

[Mob of Blondes]

Lotto style. Anybody that finishes can win it, not just whoever paints best.

[Bones]

Agreed with others, going against Nazroth & Shizune etc is intimidating. I love their work and aspire to create great paint jobs like them but in reality even if I spent hours on end with trial & error I'd still not get to that standard.
I entered the latest one with no real hope of winning but more to finish a figure that would otherwise still be unpainted.
As someone has said it might be good to align the figure criteria with what people are working on, for example I'm sure at present there are a lot of 'Onyx' box sets being completed.

[red harvest]

I like the contests. I was not at all intimidated by the competition-- but then I had no expectation or real desire to win...Certainly got drubbed last time, eh? By a Pan-O TAG no less -- just a motivation to finish. Which segues nicely into...) I have such a backlog of minis to paint, but matching the theme to what is in the painting queue has been problematic for me. Also, about 1/2 of my minis are incompletely painted, and I need to prioritize finishing them.

Keep the contests going please. Eventually the numbers will increase. If for no other reason than that the Official Forums will implode once and for all sooner or later. They seem riddled with problems at the moment.

Perhaps a poll about potential themes for people to vote on? There is a painting contest on Dakkadakka that does it that way.

Regarding advice: I have a little right now for everyone. Presentation. That means in-focus shots of the mini from front, back and both sides, and from fairly close in too. No fingers showing in the photos either, or anything else that might distract from the mini.

[ARCangel]

See I think the solution isn't better themes, rather it is no themes at all. Just paint something, anything you like. Another point I would make is maybe reduce entry amount to one model per rather than as many as you want. Don't know if I'm a fan of the lotto, then its less a contest and more a game.

[Bones]

Agreed with others, going against Nazroth & Shizune etc is intimidating. I love their work and aspire to create great paint jobs like them but in reality even if I spent hours on end with trial & error I'd still not get to that standard.
I entered the latest one with no real hope of winning but more to finish a figure that would otherwise still be unpainted.
As someone has said it might be good to align the figure criteria with what people are working on, for example I'm sure at present there are a lot of 'Onyx' box sets being completed.

Just read my own message and would like to add, please don't think I'd like Nazroth or Shizune etc to be excluded, on the contrary it's great to see their work and the contribution to these forums are great
Maybe as someone else has suggested, a 'pro/semi pro' entry and then an 'anyone else' level.

Either way it's a great concept to try and keep the paint flowing when daily life all too often gets in the way so I hope it continues.

[Nazroth]

Hey guys,

I was wondering if people were still interested in these painting campaigns...
Before I start up the next one and put in a lot of effort, I've been noticing a rather downward trend in participation. Are they not exciting enough? Is there just a general lack of interest?

What can I do to interest you in participating?

Thanks for your feedback.

Claudius, I really appreciate your work and as you know I participated in each and every painting campaign from the first one I've noticed. Still there are some things you should be able to improove to bring more peeps into participation.

1) Create a nice graphic about the campaign. Something simple like cool chick miniature, half painted, some basic info - let it be always the same with only some minor piece of info changing. Once you have a template you can just swap the info like Q1 > Q2 etc... then:

1.1) Throw it at facebook - especially WGC INFINITY group, that would also bring more peeps to the forum,
1.2) Advertise it at CB forum in an appropriate section,
1.3) Put it at the main page of DS,

2) Ask people who received their rewards from the previous campaigns to make a picture with them, 'happy and smiling' - then put these pics in each new campaign's topic as a reminder, like 'previous winners' or something - happy, smiling people will get you more interrested participants, cause it relates to being happy about the participation... it's so simple...
You see a chick smiling about eating a snickers - you got hungry? Why not a snickers? It must taste really good... you were supposed to eat something anyway...
You see people smiling while painting, or receiving rewards in a painting campaign? You are painting somethin yourself? Why not throw a pic into the campaign? It cost you near to nothing, and clearly is cool, these peeople were so happy about it...

3) Be professional - like ultra professional, like crazy professional. No more links that lead nowhere or pictures to small to actually see anything due to bad linking - if everything goes smooth and full-pro, then more people who also invest their time into participation (pictures and all) will follow. The time you invest will lead to people investing their own time. That's how things work.

4) I think that at least one random reward for participation that cannot be awarded to TOP 3 is a good way to reward everyone for participation. No matter if 4th or 10th, a chance stays the same for everyone. It worked miracles in events I myself supervised (Magic the Gathering, Wargaming Tournaments and all).

5) Make something special to be triggered by atleast ten participants. Like 'if the number hits ten, we choose a random participant to write something about his own entry, then post it as an article at the main page...' or something like this...

ARCangel has a valid point regarding theme, but I think there are two more deep-rooted compounding factors.
First is the way prizes get allocated to the best painted model. With professional painters like Nazroth, Shizune, etc., there is little incentive to post what has been painted, as there is little chance of actually winning. In this case it's easier just to paint on your own, without posting pictures.
Second is the fact that professional painters frequent this forum, and their results can be intimidating to others.

Hey men - Thanks for mentioning me beside Shizune, that's so cool (well sorry you feel the way you feel, but still cool that my painting is considerred intimidating. I take is as a big compliment.) To be honest I also feel intimidated by both Shizune and Plexus who literally crushed me in previous seasons. There were some cool minis out there with which I felt like being able to compete, but these two just crushed the hell out of me. My miniatures are far below what Shiz and Plexus presented so consider this - I just can't win... like... totally "can't". Still the entire painting campaign thingy is not about winning rewards - it's about 'sharing'. What really keeps us going is being able to talk about our projects, show them to others. Any reaction form the viewers will add us fuel to work on. Isn't that how everyone feels? Either way we all paint miniatures, so why not share it with others? Consider this - you go in to post your pic, you see my pic - maybe you think 'cool, I wander how this guy painted this or that?', you ask me - I'm totally happy to be asked about my works, cause that means somebody likes them - so you get a reply, maybe a link to my blog where many colour recipes and tutorials are posted. I go to post my pic, I see yours and many more - I like to see cool miniatures. For me to be considered cool, a miniature does not have to be perfect Shiz-style (but yeah, they are ultra-cool!). I paint for more than a decade now, but am still learning things like cool colour interaction, some awesome tricks and how to produce fine looking miniatures - each and every picture I see has some XP for me to gain. Also Claudius bombards me with some advice each time I post a finished entry - it is always a good advice, like the one about OSL at one of my works. After many hours spent on a single miniature, painters tend to miss some crucial things about their own paint job...
Still - I totally get your point, I feel the same about being 'intimidated' just as I mentioned above. Still I'm a gladiator of brush, being intimidated will not stop me

I entered the latest one with no real hope of winning but more to finish a figure that would otherwise still be unpainted.

I'm sure that is the exact point of these campaigns.

And guys - all of you - regardless of level you all present - it's not like you go to FB "Miniature Painting Tips And Tricks. Showcase And Share Your Secrets." group where people come mainly to see some 'tricks' and 'tips' or share them, then posted your pics there. We are in a painting campaign that is meant to motivate us to paint through sharing our works with others- what better place to post a pic of work in progress infinity miniatures than this campaign? Your miniatures are welcome here - hell, they are NEEDED here C'mon - show some of your stuff! Add a description, tell us something about the miniatures - anything, like why do you paint it, would you use it for gaming, or just paint to relax? Struggle with something? Why not tell about it? Each scrap of information is cool to read/reply to - really. For me this campaign is like a newspaper with things that actually interest me. I think that Claudius feels the exact same way about it. No time to go through all the topics out there, but here - there's a variety of Work in Progress things to see... I find the concept behind the painting campaign - cool.

[ARCangel]

See I read all that and now all I want is a hot chick with a snickers. Damn you, Nazroth!

On a more serious note, I do get that the point is completion, and I like the suggestions for drawing more people in. However this is about how to keep people coming back, and I still think that some sort of "minor league" for new guys, who only have one or two competitions under the belt is a good way to go. We could even do a little league thing for first time painters, and see if you and Shiz and Plex would be willing to hop in and give advice and such, maybe even throw up a tutorial. Don't feel bad or anything, its not that any of you make people feel negatively its just that good talent is intimidating. You hop into the contest to see the entries and you've got like half a dozen professional grade models sitting there under one guy, and you just go, "well hell at this point I might as well paint at my own pace." Its not just about completion at that point, its about completion and goal setting. Any mook can sit down and paint a miniature over the course of a year, it takes a bit of planning and dedication to get it done, well, within a set time frame.

Also, to Claudius, maybe less overall entry time. Not like 2 weeks or anything but maybe a whole quarter gives people way too much time to make excuses and not get done.

[Claudius Sol]

Thanks for your critique and suggestions, guys!
You don't know how much I appreciate it!

So let's see what we can do about all this.

From the next season on, I'll advertise on the following platforms:
Twitter (@ClaudiusSol mentioning @DataSphr and @InfinityTheGame)
Facebook (via Data-Sphere's official page and then shared to WGC Infinity)
Infinity Official Forums (updates to the pinned Data-Sphere post MoB mentioned)
Data-Sphere Forums (via a post in the Miniatures section)
(What do you think of another post in some other section?)
There's a bit of an issue with posting on the main page, since any subsequent article will displace the painting article.

As for themes, could I have a quick show of hands on whether anyone is discouraged to participate because of the themes? If even one person is inconvenienced, I will remove the theme component. The point of the campaign is to be inclusive, and if that goes against it, then it makes sense it be removed. As well, a poll for the theme would be cumbersome, I feel.

As for Profession/Amateur/Newbie competition... I'm not sure what to do about that besides remove the voting component and/or the prize component. Which segues into my next point...

Prizes... So, maybe this is a little further behind the curtain than you're meant to see, but Data-Sphere had some issues recently that make obtaining and sending out prizes very difficult. Namely, where we thought we had funds, we do not. So I've been trying to find some means to fulfill prior campaigns with my own funds that is financially feasible. This has also been difficult for me. Any suggestions? At the least, I intend to ship something out to past winners, but the patch component has been illusive, to say the least. A "wildcard" prize could work, but I'm not made of money, so it'd be in replacement of one of the current prizes, as opposed to in addition to.

If we remove the voting component and have it purely based on random draw, then I would also think removing the patch offering to be appropriate.

I don't want to dictate too much what people post, but I had intended the whole thing to be a sort of "mutual learning" experience for everyone. A sort of open floor for painting, conversion, and general hobby discussion.

I don't want to separate the levels of painters, though. That splits the discussion instead of uniting us all as hobbyists.

I'm not well acquainted enough with image editing software to confidently create a banner or similar promotional image for the campaign. Is there anyone here who wouldn't mind whipping up something? If not, I can certainly try, but it's not likely to be pretty.

As mentioned before, prizes haven't been going out due to outstanding factors that we didn't foresee. So... don't really have places to pull such "Success!" images from right now. The best I have are the articles that go out at the end of every voting session.

Regarding being professional: I put in what time I can. I make mistakes sometimes. This is the nature of things. I am only human.

Time... So, it's a pesky thing. On one hand, too little time and some busy people can't reasonably participate. Too much time and it would seem it bores some people.

I'm also strongly considering limiting the amount of entries, as (and no offense Nazroth) but a huge mass of submissions is very very difficult for me to process in addition to being intimidating to prospective entrants. Instead of one, how about a max of three models entered? That way, we still get the point across of painting more models and also avoid the "swamp" of lots of models from pros. I'm also open to more suggestions.

I would certainly like to reiterate that the campaign is meant to encourage simply putting paint to a model. Improving painting, winning seasons of the campaign, and even the discussion among painters is a secondary consideration to having people slapping some paint on metal.

[ARCangel]

My lady is a graphic designer she said she'd whip one up. Maybe make it less of a prize and more of a prestige thing? Like some sort of custom forum name color for the people who win? If we take the prizes out then it takes out the feel of competing with the big shots. Another idea is that maybe, Nazroth I don't know if you're up for it but we can also ask Shizune and Plexus, some of the better painters would be willing to be more active in critique and encouragement of the painters involved. We can encourage step by step uploads where people toss up photos of the milestones they've made in painting the model. I don't know for everyone but for me at least I do things in stages over the course of days or even weeks. Make it less about winning and more about the community coming together and painting. We could even make the article feature everyone's models, not just the winners. Being on the front page for a few days might get some people.

I vote no theme just because I think it hinders entry by people who aren't working on that particular type of model.

[Nazroth]

My lady is a graphic designer she said she'd whip one up. Maybe make it less of a prize and more of a prestige thing? Like some sort of custom forum name color for the people who win? If we take the prizes out then it takes out the feel of competing with the big shots. Another idea is that maybe, Nazroth I don't know if you're up for it but we can also ask Shizune and Plexus, some of the better painters would be willing to be more active in critique and encouragement of the painters involved. We can encourage step by step uploads where people toss up photos of the milestones they've made in painting the model. I don't know for everyone but for me at least I do things in stages over the course of days or even weeks. Make it less about winning and more about the community coming together and painting. We could even make the article feature everyone's models, not just the winners. Being on the front page for a few days might get some people.

I vote no theme just because I think it hinders entry by people who aren't working on that particular type of model.

Well - to be active requires time - and time is not something that comes easy for commission painters. Still I can try my best to give some advice but 'critique'... if I had learned anything during many years of forum flame-warfare - is that: critique won't make me any friends. So I am willing to say my thoughts about someone's miniatures - but only if he asks me directly to do so while also being ready to be blown into bitz if I see some utter mistakes (like mold lines not being removed etc.). I would never, under any other circumstances come into a topic where people share their stuff, fruits of their labour - and assault someones work. Also using tricks like 'sandwitch' ("I like it, but that and that is bad, but still it's cool and blablablah") seems to me kind of cheesy. So if someone's ready for a real 'critique', totally subjective and honest - it's possible but only if he's ready for it and asks me for it.

So let's see what we can do about all this.

From the next season on, I'll advertise on the following platforms:
Twitter (@ClaudiusSol mentioning @DataSphr and @InfinityTheGame)
Facebook (via Data-Sphere's official page and then shared to WGC Infinity)
Infinity Official Forums (updates to the pinned Data-Sphere post MoB mentioned)
Data-Sphere Forums (via a post in the Miniatures section)

Seems pretty nice to me. Also a pinned topic with all the TOP 3 participants from all the campaigns would be cool. Like a hall of fame, or something.

As for themes, could I have a quick show of hands on whether anyone is discouraged to participate because of the themes? If even one person is inconvenienced, I will remove the theme component. The point of the campaign is to be inclusive, and if that goes against it, then it makes sense it be removed. As well, a poll for the theme would be cumbersome, I feel.

If you're set on getting more participants, removing the theme is probably the best way to go. Also it's not like CB is funding any rewards and also it's not like theme is making anyone to purchase a specific miniature just to paint it for the theme's sake - so removing it will only have positive impact.

As for Profession/Amateur/Newbie competition... I'm not sure what to do about that besides remove the voting component and/or the prize component. Which segues into my next point...

Separating competitors into different groups should be followed by providing a really nice carrot for the pros. Right now it's impossible due to not enought funds, and hell - there are plenty painting competitions out there in the web, so I don't think it should be done this way. Rather re-design the entire thing, even if that means removing physical rewards and providing some sort of other features (yeah - forum rang name, or something extra sounds nice).

I'm not well acquainted enough with image editing software to confidently create a banner or similar promotional image for the campaign. Is there anyone here who wouldn't mind whipping up something? If not, I can certainly try, but it's not likely to be pretty.

I was to propose myself to do it, but since ARCangel's GF is a professional graphic, better for the entire thing to be made by a real pro. Cool!

[ARCangel]

Fair enough about the critiques, I can see where that could get a little iffy. I guess I just don't mind my working getting picked apart and sort of forget that other people do

[DarthMels]

I was to propose myself to do it, but since ARCangel's GF is a professional graphic, better for the entire thing to be made by a real pro. Cool!

Mrs. ARCangel here- I'd be more than happy to whip up something for the campaign. If you or Claudius have something in mind for what you'd like for the banner, just post here or throw me a pm and we can collaborate. I'm very excited to help with what I can!

I have a few things in response to the thread itself;

I think doing away with the theme is a big one. Like what was said above, some painters might not have what's required immediately available or have in their collection in the first place. I got lucky with my Father Knight because I hadn't painted him yet, otherwise I probably wouldn't have been able to enter.

I personally like the idea of the Pros/Amateurs/Newbies division. Seeing painters like Nazroth (sorry to use you as an example again, I just really really like your work ) can totally be intimidating and if that's basically all you're up against, it's really easy to go "Nope, I'm outtie." If that's not feasible, I understand. I'll still be entering anyway because I just love painting- my carpal tunnel, however, would gladly argue with me.

And finally: prizes. To be perfectly honest, the prizes really weren't what drew me in. The recognition and people stopping by and saying "Hey, you done good" or giving me advice to improve myself is what I like. I don't know how other people feel about it, but that's my two cents. Maybe you could make the prize a "Featured Model" or "Painter of the week/month/whatever" post so it can be seen by more people and get a greater feedback.

[Claudius Sol]

Great discussion, guys! I'd love to respond to everything.

ARCangel

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DarthMels's assistance is greatly appreciated! I'll see what I can do about providing some 'Sphere logos and we can dream up some ideas. My name is fairly public, so if you have Facebook, feel free to get in touch there and we can discuss a little more fluidly.

I can certainly see what we can do about maybe Titles or similar. Perhaps something to append to signatures? I can definitely restructure the end-of-season articles to include all entrants.

No theme, it is! That is immediately getting chucked.

Nazroth

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I try and do what I can to offer critique, but I do agree that it can be off-putting for some painters, so I get where you're coming from Nazroth. Perhaps we can add a bit at the start where we notify that most people will not offer critique unless asked for.

I like that idea of a Hall of Fame. I'll get right on it! (but it'll have to be after this weekend... This week is unfortunately incredibly busy for me.)

DarthMels

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See above with ARCangel, but it's not hard to find my name, so feel free to reach out to me on Facebook!

Maybe we should do away with the "competition" portion altogether, and make it a sort of "group get together"?

Hmm... top voted model gets to be the featured picture for that season's entry in the Hall of Fame?

Anyway, I'm just riffing here, guys. Feel free to keep posting up suggestions and we'll see what we come up with! I think this month will be good to use as a "back and forth" for us to find what will work best.

[WookieeGunner]

@DarthMels, do you think you could whip up a signature banner for first (and maybe 2nd and 3rd) place in a layers format? I'm picturing something like a medallion or similar with "Data Shpere 2016 Winter Painting Competition" in a text layer so Claudius can just change the "2016 Winter" part, resave and have new logos for the next competition.

My suggestion would be something small so that people who win multiples don't kill the forum with their signature.

[DarthMels]

@Claudius_Sol Actually, all I know is that your first name is Bryant so PM me and I can FB you from that. (So many acronyms!)

@WookieGunner I like the idea, and I'd be happy to work up a few sketches this week if I have time, or I might wait till Claudius and I talk more so I can make the medal fit the theme of the promotional artwork.

[WookieeGunner]

If you want a suggestion, maybe use the hexagon in the Data Sphere logo colored changed to Gold, Silver, and Bronze.

[Claudius Sol]

PM sent, DarthMels.

Also, the small medallion isn't a bad idea, at all.

[schoon]

If you want a suggestion, maybe use the hexagon in the Data Sphere logo colored changed to Gold, Silver, and Bronze.

Solid suggestion.